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To: Campion
What do you think the Apostles did? (Acts 8:26-40) What do you think Christ did for the Apostles? (Luke 24:13-35) What do you think the teachers the Apostles appointed, the bishops, did for the church? (2 Tm 2:2) And why does Scripture say we are to obey those human authorities placed over the church by God? (Heb 13:17)

In Acts 8:26-40 it looks like the Holy Spirit is doing the interpretation - not men. In Luke 24:13-35 Jesus is doing the interpreting. 2Tim 2:2 seems to be a warning against people pretending to be Apostles and I find 2Tim 2:3-4 intriguing. I concede the point to you on Heb 13:17, but in light of 2Tim 2:3-4, those leaders obviously must be held to a standard, no?

And this verse right here shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that the clergy can mess up and be corrected by laymen:

1Ti 5:19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.

1,246 posted on 10/24/2006 7:34:31 PM PDT by kerryusama04 (Isa 8:20, Eze 22:26)
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To: kerryusama04

GREAT POINTS. Thanks.


1,264 posted on 10/24/2006 9:24:00 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: kerryusama04
And this verse right here shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that the clergy can mess up and be corrected by laymen:

1Ti 5:19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.

Catholics agree. But Catholics do not see this truth as incompatible with Heb 13:17. We recognize that our leaders are fallible, but we also recognize that God has appointed them, and that He wants us to obey them. The command to obey our leaders is not a blank check. Perhaps that is your worry (and it is an understandable and justified worry). But we have to fit both truths together, and neither reject Church authority nor turn into Catholic Borg [from Star Trek]. Protestantism has tended to reject Church authority altogether, as you can see clearly stated throughout this thread. On the other side, some Catholics have hushed up crimes and abuses because they failed to understand that our leaders are fallible.

The charism of truth provided in ordination is not an unqualified gift of infallibility; it is a *communal* gift, one that applies to the bishops as a whole (united throughout all time), and especially to the bishop of Rome speaking ex cathedra. Priests and bishops and even popes are, outside of those qualifications, fallible and flawed human persons.

We don't have to choose between deifying clergy and rejecting Church authority. That's a false dichotomy.

-A8

1,287 posted on 10/24/2006 10:45:54 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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