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To: Cvengr
saved from everlasting condemnation and given eternal life.

Salvation came to you through the Church, whether you realize it or not. That is why Augustine says, "He cannot have God for his father who does not have the Church for his mother." That does not mean that salvation did not come to you through Christ. But Christ is not greedy; He lets others participate in His saving work. Just as doing it unto the least of these is doing it unto Him, so he who listens to the Apostles (and bishops) listens to Christ, but who who rejects the Apostles (and bishops) rejects Christ and Him who sent Christ (Luke 10:16). Christ uses the Church (His body) to bring salvation to sinners. The visible Church is the body of the incarnate Christ now on Earth; we are His hands and feet. We continue His work with our hands and feet. To be saved one must be incorporated into Christ's body, to be made a part of His bride, the Church. That is why the Church is essential to our salvation.

-A8

1,145 posted on 10/24/2006 12:17:13 AM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8
That is why Augustine says, "He cannot have God for his father who does not have the Church for his mother."

With all due respect to Augustine, there is simply NO scriptural basis for that statement. I respect his love for & loyalty to his church, but nowhere in scripture is it said we need a "mother" of any sort or that God alone is not sufficient. This is fundamentally conflicting, to say the least, with scripture. The comment implies one is not exclusive of the other and that is simply not true.

Salvation does not come through a church, whether with a big "C" or a little "c". Salvation comes from the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. Jesus is ALL that is necessary for one's salvation. In His FINISHED work on the cross there IS sufficient for all of mankind's salvation. We have no need for a "mother" be it a church or other person. Our Father, in all of His righteousness and Glory, is more than enough for us. He shares His Glory with NO ONE. I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another... - ISAIAH 42:8

To be saved one must be incorporated into Christ's body, to be made a part of His bride, the Church.

That is just not true:

The jailer] "brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31)

1,147 posted on 10/24/2006 2:42:00 AM PDT by PleaseNoMore
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To: adiaireton8

I suspect your meaning is well intentioned, but perhaps confusing salvation with sanctification. Technically, Christ paid the price, the Father makes the call and the Holy Spirit regenerates the spirit. The act of regeneration is synonmous with salvation. It is a one time event. It is a birth of life. Sanctification continues over time until the first death by our ability to remain in fellowship with Him. Durung the Church Age, we are indwelled by the Holy Spirit upon regeneration. We are filled with the Spirit while we remain in fellowship with Him and do not sin after returning to Him. If we sin, we may return to Him by telling Him our sin through faith in Christ and returning to Him in our thinking. Then He is free to continue in His fellowhip with us.

The Church or body of believers do have some involvement, in that we witness the Gospel to an unbeliever and then when the Father is ready He makes the call. The Holy Spirit searches our hearts and makes our prayers known to Him and makes our faith effective for salvation in His work of regenerating our spirit.

The Church doesn't have the ability to regenerate the spirit of any fallen man. That is only within the capacity of God.


1,810 posted on 10/28/2006 6:55:24 PM PDT by Cvengr
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