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Salvation by divine "revelation" is even more akin to the gnostics of the first and second centuries than salvation by knowledge acquired by sense perception, for divine "revelation" per se has nothing to do with matter or the incarnation. In fact, talking about "spiritual hearing" or any other species of higher knowledge or spiritual knowledge is even more evidence of gnosticism. For that is exactly what the gnostics of the first centuries claimed, that they were saved by a higher [hidden to the unenlightened], spiritual knowledge.

-A8

for divine "revelation" per se has nothing to do with matter or the incarnation.
= = =

Hogwash.

HOLY SPIRIT BREATHED WAS PART AND PARCEL OF THE INCARNATION. God was not, is not schizophrenic nor gnostic.

Calling something Holy Spirit does gnostic is equal to calling Holy Spirit gnostic. I doubt He's impressed or delighted.

Thank you for your reply, A8 – and thank you for your encouragements, Quix!

A8: Salvation by divine "revelation" is even more akin to the gnostics of the first and second centuries than salvation by knowledge acquired by sense perception, for divine "revelation" per se has nothing to do with matter or the incarnation.

To the contrary, it has everything to do with the incarnation of Christ (I prefer the word enflesh, btw.) The Comforter could not and did not come until Jesus Christ died, resurrected and returned to heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father. (John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:7)

But concerning matter – at least from my perspective – you are spot-on. I have no confidence at all in matter.

The critical density of the universe (all the matter) consists of three types: ordinary matter which represents 5% of the critical density, dark matter (the high gravity center of galaxies, etc.) which represents some 25% of the critical density and dark energy which is the whopping 70%. The dark energy has a negative gravity effect – like a space/time outdent – accelerating the expansion of the universe.

The Standard Model of physics posits the Higgs field/boson as ordinary matter. But neither Fermilab nor CERN have yet either observed or made ordinary matter. And even if CERN succeeds, the remaining 95% remains unobserved and unmade in laboratory conditions.

So significant is this absence of evidence (which in physics unlike biology is the evidence of absence) that many physicists have turned to other explanations of matter per se. A popular one is that matter in four dimensions is actually a shadow of momentum components in a fifth dimension. Another is that matter in four dimensions is multiply imaged from matter in a fifth time-like dimension – as little as a single particle, multiply imaged 10⁸⁰ times.

Or as Einstein said, “reality is an illusion, albeit a persistent one.”

One can add to all of this concerning matter the phenomena of non-locality and quantum superposition. On the one hand the measurement of one of an entangled photon pair determines the other regardless of spatial separation, 11 kilometers or across the galaxy. On the other hand, the cat is neither dead nor alive but both dead and alive.

So, no – on Spiritual grounds first and foremost – and also on scientific grounds at a much lower level of my personal epistemology (how I know what I know and how sure I am that I know it) ---– I put no confidence whatsoever in matter.

A8: In fact, talking about "spiritual hearing" or any other species of higher knowledge or spiritual knowledge is even more evidence of gnosticism. For that is exactly what the gnostics of the first centuries claimed, that they were saved by a higher [hidden to the unenlightened], spiritual knowledge.

That theology is in direct opposition to Scriptures quoting Christ, John and Paul:

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things? – John 3:11-12

For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:6-9

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Col 3:1-3

Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. – 1 John 4:4-6

Again, I couldn’t possibly care less about labels. If you want to call me gnostic, then go right ahead - the use of a label reflects more on the speaker than the target.

For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. – 2 Tim 1:12