Peter & Succession (Understanding the Church Today)

Ignatius Insight ^ | 2005 | Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

[1000 silverlings]

And therefore, all revelations of God are more sure, more valuable, more trustworthy to me than any other source of knowledge – whether sensory perception, logic, mentors, opinions of experts, etc

But, what exactly are "all revelations of God"? This is an old bugaboo isn't it?

Cults everywhere rely on "revelations of God".

Christians rely on the Word as spoken by the prophets, and, because of the spiritual gifts given to some by God and the HS of course, we can have assurance that our prophets are from God, plus we can test the spirits.

With personal "revelations", (and I do believe there are some from God,) one can't admit them into doctrine, for that is never their purpose. Now without insulting any specific group, there is a sect I'm sure you are aware of, that uses personal revelation from everyone, but especially its leader, and just look at the mess it has become.

[wmfights]

"When our Lord was speaking to Paul [Acts 9:3-9] he never mentioned the word "rock". "
_____________________________

You've really got me going on this! The scholarship both of you have provided has been terrific. So based on a misinterpretation of Matthew 16: 17-19 the church in Rome began claiming Peter founded it so they could claim "special" authority. IOW, that their Bishop was the "top" Bishop. When did Rome begin to assert this position? If for example it was after the persecutions in the early 300's I can see how they might be able to, since 240 years had passed.

[1000 silverlings]

They have to keep reading in Matthew:

20:25

But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.

20:26

But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;

20:27

And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Christians rely on the Word as spoken by the prophets, and, because of the spiritual gifts given to some by God and the HS of course, we can have assurance that our prophets are from God, plus we can test the spirits.

Amen! Think how long and hard Paul labored to impress upon believers the solid assurance of their faith; the tangible and real salvation they had received by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ which some had witnessed with their own eyes.

"By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore." -- Hebrews 7:22-28

[1000 silverlings]

Amen, Doctor

Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

But there persists something in mankind that likes the authority to try and "call fire down from Heaven" and just will not accept that Jesus did a complete and finished work.

[InterestedQuestioner]

Hello Kerryusama,

Thank you for your post. I don’t think that what you are describing matches my experience of the Catholic Church. If it did, I would be in complete agreement with you in rejecting it. Respectfully, is it possible that the reality of the Catholic Church differs from you perception of it?

I’m not familiar with your beliefs. Just to make sure that I am not misunderstanding you, I’d like to ask a few questions related to your post:

“The result of the first controversy you post is that Paul decides to give the offender the death penalty since, because he cannot stop sinning, it is better for him to be dead and hope to be judged well at the resurrection."

Are you saying that that the individuals in question were killed by the early Christians, and that was done at St. Paul’s command?

[InterestedQuestioner]

Hello Quix,

Thank you for your thoughtful and thorough post. I enjoyed your post, and will take time to reflect upon what you have written. I think you have a very interesting perspective, and I’d like to learn more about that. I hope we will have time in future conversations to discuss your views.

For the time being, I would like to respond briefly to a few of the points you made.

I think a very important point is implied in your posts--theology and personal belief need to match up with the individuals experience of reality. If I understand you correctly, you’re pointing out the importance of being honest with ones self, of avoiding self-deception and hypocrisy. I agree, if our spiritual beliefs do not match up with what is true, we have a problem. The call to faith contains within it a call to personal honesty.

Your perspective on the need for the Holy Spirit to lead the Church is also very important one, and I think you raise some obvious concerns about how Church organization and hierarchy function. I think that’s an area where dialog is very important. One of the reasons why we need unity within the Church is to ensure that such dialog takes place. If I understand you correctly, you have a commitment to a Charismatic understanding of the Church, one that is consistent with St. Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians, chapters 12-14. These Scriptures contain an extraordinary teaching about the primacy of love in the Christian life, and in the life of the Church. They also describe the gifts of the spirit, including gifts such as prophesy and speaking in tongues. Views related to these gifts are often lacking and perhaps overlooked within the broader Church. One reason that unity is important is it creates the opportunity for collaboration and dialog among Christians with strong understandings of particular parts of Revelation. It’s a problem when the Church is segregated so that each faction is only describing one part of the Elephant to itself.

“I Corinthians 12-14 answers that question conclusively for all time in the Church age. The New Testament offers no better description of God's solution for that; God's plan and design for that.”

It sounds like what is being described in 1 Cor 12-14 contains many elements that one would expect to find in many Charismatic or Pentecostal Communities. Clearly there is a Biblical precedent for the style of worship. I’m not familiar with such communities, and would like to learn more about them, and am looking forward to hearing your views. It is also important to recognize, however, that these practices occur in a hierarchical organization, and it is an organization in which leaders use the charism of leadership to benefit and guide the community. The Epistles are instructions written by authorities to communities under their charge. For example, Paul admonishes the Corinthians in 1 Cor rather strongly, and it includes instructions to excommunicate two Christians living in an incestuous relationship. There is a also a biblically mandated imperative to obey rightfully established leaders. The discussion of the Church in 1 Corinthians 12-14 includes a description of the role of the gifts of the Spirit within the Church. It also important to recognize that it contains a description of the Eucharist immediately prior to this description in 1 Cor 11; 23-32. St Paul also instructs the Corinthians to maintain the traditions which he has passed on to them, either orally or in previous correspondence which we no longer have “Be imitators of me, even as I am of Christ. I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions, even as I delivered them to you.” (1 Cor 11: 1,2.) Now in your post you point out that leaders have often failed their flocks. No argument there, the authors of Scripture took great pains to point out that the Apostles failed the Church on numerous occasions. Nonetheless, there is still a Church, and the Apostles were still the rightful leaders of the Church. We cannot dismiss the authority given to the Church by Christ because of the failings of individual leaders anymore than we can dismiss the mission of the individuals within the Church because of failures on the part of those individuals who call themselves Christians.

Christ established a Church with the authority to determine what is and what is not authentic Christian belief. That is a prerogative that we see exercised repeatedly and emphatically in the New Testament. The Church of the New Testament also possesses and exercises the authority to excommunicate, to establish moral standards and church practice, and has a Sacramental function. You bring very important points to the discussion with regards to the individual’s relationship to God, the necessity of love within the Church, and the necessity for the Church to submit to the Will of God. These are consistent with an organized and unified Church community, not opposed to it, since Christ himself founded a visible, cohesive and hierarchical Church. As St. Paul says “Now you are the Body of Christ, and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, and speakers in various kinds of tongues. Are all Apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess the gift of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the higher gifts.” (1 Cor 12: 27-30)

I'll close here. By the way, you've mentioned in your posts that you are a teacher. If you don't mind my asking, what do you teach?

[InterestedQuestioner]

Uncle Chip,

Just to be clear, you and Diego1618 have produced no evidence to support your position that St. Peter was never in Rome.

Several hundred posts ago, Adiaireton8 very clearly stated a preference to postpone any further conversation with you until you demonstrated an interest in honest and sincere dialog. Nonetheless, you’re continuing to write lengthy posts to him. Since he appears to be ignoring you, you’ll surely not mind if I receive the benefit of your thorough and exhaustive research.

Where does Scripture say St. Peter died?

[InterestedQuestioner]

.30Carbine,

Thank you for posting that beautiful Scripture.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

But there persists something in mankind that likes the authority to try and "call fire down from Heaven" and just will not accept that Jesus did a complete and finished work.

Yep. Some people enjoy being authoritarians.

Did you ever see that old Cary Grant movie, "None but the Lonely Heart?"

In it, Grant says most people like to be led around by someone else, and instead he's "looking for a dog that does not seek a master."

Our only master is Jesus Christ. And we are led by His will, and not our own clever choice to follow Him or the many false facsimiles put in our way.

[Uncle Chip]

Please be patient. A few minor changes are necessary to the great thesis of this thread. We're getting an answer back from the magisterium as to whether we can add the "SAINT" in front of "PETER" in the title of the thesis. These decisions take time.

For the benefit of those who just joined us, let me recap up to this point:Awhile back Adiaireton8 and I had a deep discussion about the search for "genuine truth" and decided on a joint venture in pursuit of an ecumenical thesis that is consistent with the topic of this thread regarding the great legend of Peter's Bishopric in Rome.

My part of the thesis was to present the evidence for Peter's Roman Bishopric in the Holy Scriptures and his part was to present the evidence for Peter's Roman Bishopric from the writings of the Ante-Nicene Fathers. I would post my evidence first, followed by his. No links, no verbosity, no editorializing, no commentary, just the pure words from the Holy Scriptures and the writings of the Ante-Nicene Fathers themselves.

After we post our evidence, it is open to challenge from a jury of our peers who are free to be as critical as they like. The evidence we present must stand up to inquiry and scrutiny without collapsing. So feel free to be blunt and honest with your questioning and comments. Hold nothing back.

As soon as we hear from the magisterium, it will be on its way. Thank you for your patience.

[Quix]

So, Guess I have to start implementing a PREFACE LINE . . .

WARNING . . . RANDOM SPONTANEOUS QUIXISMS MAY CAUSE HAZARD TO KEYBOARD OR MONITOR . . . READ AT YOUR OWN RISK . . .

That do?

Would be sorry . . . but I have to replenish the sorry stock at 7/11 fresh out . . . for such cases.

[Quix]

More historical accuracy. Are you angling for a History Chair at . . . welll, probably not Cambridge. Probably not Harvard . . . Would you believe CBN?

[Quix]

Absolutely uniforms!

Modified burqas. White window screens for girls. Black flowing robes for boys and girls. Gold braid on the cuffs of the real bullies. Black skull caps for girls. Shows we're truly charitable toward all. Who knows, maybe the Jihadi's will shoot us last.

[Quix]

Wow.

More rational, factual, historically accurate, Biblical truth.

Wonderful.

[Quix]

CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED

I have a conviction . . . perhaps a bias . . . perhaps an impression or sense . . .

that

in coming months and years . . . WHEN AND IF we keep our eyes, focus on Christ . . . we will have direction, guidance, protection, provision . . . which may lead some to martyrdom and others to safety from place to place.

But those who don't, will be out of this life altogether much sooner . . . and much less . . . attractively.

[kerryusama04]

Wrong thread.

[Quix]

Wow, after trying to read that I'm convinced that paragraphs are the work of the Holy Spirit.
= = =

Indeed . . . though maybe just one of His . . . minor sighs or whiffs?

[Quix]

Yes, personal revelations . . . especially unscreened by truly anointed humble folks . . . are a great hazard.

I do expect God to clean that mess up . . . still waiting.

[Alamo-Girl]

But, what exactly are "all revelations of God"? This is an old bugaboo isn't it?

Not at all, 1000 silverlings!

Again on this thread I assert strongly that God the Father has revealed Himself in four ways:

1. Through Jesus Christ who is the brightness of His glory, the express image of His person – by whom everything that was made, was made, and for whom it exists and by whom it subsists. (Hebrews 1:3, Col 1)

2. Through the indwelling Spirit who reveals Truth to us and leads us. (John 14-17, Romans 8, I Cor 2)

3. Through the Scriptures, the truth of which are authenticated by Jesus (Matt 5) and by the indwelling Spirit - which is to say, the first two revelations.

4. Through Creation itself. (Psalms 19) And we will be held to account if we fail to notice at least this much of His revelation (Romans 1:20)

And concerning "personal revelation" the first and most important one that we Christians - every single one of us - receive is that "Jesus Christ is Lord". That doesn't come from our own mind, it comes from Him. God cannot be found by the reason-only sort, Christ is foolishness to them (I Cor 2)

We are the "elect" or "called" or "drawn" or the ones with "ears to hear":

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. - John 8:43

The ones to whom Christ was speaking had physical ears which were registering the pressure waves (sounds) and their brains were working. They were hearing physically, but they were not hearing spiritually.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

As to the revelation of the Spirit, if a person does not have it, he is not reborn, he is not one of Christ's.

And if he has been reborn, but refuses to listen to the Spirit, he is in deep trouble:

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:5-9

IMHO all of these points should be the basics, milk, to every Christian.