Peter & Succession (Understanding the Church Today)

Ignatius Insight ^ | 2005 | Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

[wagglebee]

I always find it humorous to hear things like, "God gives all believers the authority/ability to [fill in the blank]." However, you will see these same people argue for days that the Pope has no authority or ability to do these things.

[Quix]

WRONG.

We merely construe it that the top Roman has no EXTRA ability beyond that which Holy Spirit might grant any believers AT THE SPIRIT'S CHOOSING.

[wagglebee]

So, you acknowledge that you have no proof against Papal Infallibility?

[adiaireton8]

Since you have the same authority as the Apostles, and since we don't need to obey you, therefore, apparently, we don't need to obey the Apostles. And therefore, apparently, we don't need to obey the writings of the Apostles (i.e. the NT). That is going to come as a big surprise to most Christinans.

-A8

[wagglebee]

Sounds suspiciously like Mormonism if you ask me.

[wmfights]

"provoke unto love and good works but particularly toward a more intimate relationship, dance with God."
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I agree, but I always check against Scripture.

[Quix]

Part of me wants to go BBBBTTTTTTT at so much lawyer type wording.

Instead, I think I'll just note the Biblical standard given

. . . does the source/speaker assert

THAT CHRIST CAME IN THE FLESH . . .

Works for me.

After that, probably the fruits of The Spirit in any Biblical list are added information contributive to accurate conclusions about the spirituality . . . and thereby the kosherness of the individual(s) concerned.

Fruitfulness, is also a Biblical fruit of The Spirit.

I don't know of any better criteria, at all.

= = =

In the coming months and years . . . ALL authority of an earthly sort--is going to be at least shaken--probably most will be shredded, flushed and/or at best thoroughly overhauled and reararranged.

In most locales and probably all at one time or another . . . there will be no effective authority on the natural plain. The spiritual warfare in the heavenlies will have descended to earth with a vengeance.

Children younger than 8 or 10 will wield spiritual authority that will send generals and their armies to their deaths and hell . . . as such anointed children speak out what Holy Spirit gives them to say.

HOLY SPIRIT WILL BE INCREASINGLY IN CHARGE COVERTLY AND OVERTLY. He will do so through UTTERLY YIELDED VESSELS. Others will muddle through as best they can, which won't be very well. Hearing and obeying Holy Spirit will be the only protection, the only life.

I care not how many doubt the above words. Time will tell. And all who have read them will remember.

[Quix]

I personally have not prayed about the current leading Roman. I don't know how much of an earnest truly spiritual man of God he might be or might not be.

From what I've heard, I'm impressed by his standards of righteousness compared to many who have filled the office.

I haven't read of any healings, resurrections, other sorts of overt miracles at his hand.

[Quix]

Papal infallibility?

LOL. No. I don't acknowledge that, at all. I decline to offer any besides a generic note to encourage folks to review the historical record.

In terms of the long list of folks in that office, I think I have more confidence in Binny Hinn's infallibility . . . which isn't much . . . though since God took him to the woodshed over his pride, he's done much better.

I understand that in an European venue recently, everyone in the building was on the floor, including Benny's staff. I love it when Holy Spirit surprises people.

[Quix]

It's difficult to know how to respond to utter nonsense.

[Quix]

Yes, the Scriptural standard is quite vitally important.

[adiaireton8]

JESUS GAVE ALL BELIEVERS such authority. He made that clear. Paul made that clear.

Since "Jesus gave all believers such authority", and since I am a believer, therefore I too have such authority. Why then don't you obey me, and treat my words as the words of the NT?

-A8

[Quix]

There are some eroneous assumptions in those lines. Perhaps I'll get to them later in the day. About to head out to the college.

Cheeky assumptions, pretentions don't usually make sound theology, though.

[Quix]

I do believe the Roman bible has the verse about:

THSE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE . . .

Mercifully, there are SOME Romans around the world living that verse out with great miraculous effect.

[adiaireton8]

It's difficult to know how to respond to utter nonsense.

It is an argument, and there are only ways to refute an argument: show one of the premises to be false or show that conclusion does not follow from the premises. So here is the argument laid out in syllogistic form:

(1) Quix has the same authority as the Apostles,

(2) We do not need to obey Quix.

Therefore:

(3) We do not need to obey the Apostles. [from (1) & (2)]

(4) The NT is the writing of the Apostles

Therefore:

(5) We do not need to obey the NT: [from (3) and (4)]

- A8

[Quix]

I'm not sure if the tidy little box has shrunk or the . . . have bound up.

But I doubt I'll research it out very far.

[wmfights]

"Many of the early fathers were coming out of pagan cultures and, as godly as they tried to be given their situation, they were prone to errors just like everyone else. Some of them held very strange ideas and the Eucharist was one of them. But I really see the problems develop later (around 600AD and upwards) as humanism enveloped the church,..."
________________________________

I wonder if the humanism that developed came from the gnostics who were never completely rooted out?

One interesting theory I've read about the common meal tradition, during which they had the Eucharist, is that it was the communal nature and fellowship that led to Jesus being there (not in the substances).

I think it is clear that because of man's fallibility it is always best to rely on the "God breathed" inspired writings that are the New Testament and not on any source that is subject to historical pressures.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your reply and questions!

(1) why did Jesus give His Apostles the authority to bind and loose and forgive and retain sins, and to speak in His name such that whoever listens to them listens to Him, and whoever rejects them rejects Him? (Luke 10:6; 1 John 4:6) And

I John 4:4-6 is addressed to all of us, not just the twelve apostles (emphasis mine):

Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Likewise, Luke 10:1-6 is addressed to those He appointed to precede His coming, not just the twelve apostles. Again, the labor is about the power of God not the will of the laborers (emphasis mine):

After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come. Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly [is] great, but the labourers [are] few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.

Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves. Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way. And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace [be] to this house. And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.

And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house. And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you: And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say, Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me. And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and [he] to whom the Son will reveal [him].

And he turned him unto [his] disciples, and said privately, Blessed [are] the eyes which see the things that ye see: For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard [them]. – Luke 10:1-24

Without Him, we can do nothing.

I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. – John 15:5

You also asked:

(2) why do you consider the writings of the Apostles (i.e. the NT) authoritative? And

Because the indwelling Spirit brings the Scriptures alive within me as my eyes pass over the words.

I used to consider the Scriptures like any other ancient manuscript (which I love to read by the way.) I studied them diligently with maps, commentaries, lexicons and the whole nine yards.

Then one day along the way in my long walk with the Lord, the truth came to me that the Scriptures are not text-on-paper, they are words of God, alive. From that moment foreword, I read the Scriptures casually like a love letter – and the words came alive within me. And not only that, but the indwelling Spirit brings specific passages to mind throughout the day according to my personal need.

The Spirit also leads my investigation into many other things, gives me understanding and encourages me or discourages me from certain paths.

Sometimes He confirms a truth casually spoken by another Christian. One such example was a little blue haired lady who, after the preacher spoke of Peter’s sinking trying to go to Jesus on the water, that “sinking wasn’t his job.” It rang true within me.

(3) why are the Twelve Apostles the foundation stones of the Church (Rev 21:14) and why will they "sit upon twelve thrones" (Matt 19:28; Luke 22:30)?

Because they are honored in the same way the twelve sons of Jacob are honored. Although she doesn’t sit among the twelve or twenty four, Mary is honored and the woman who washed Jesus’ feet is honored. Likewise, Abraham is honored though he is not among either group of twelve, nor is Moses or David or Isaiah or Enoch or Elijah and so on.

Are the twelve apostles more honored than Mary or Abraham or Moses or David simply because they are honored as foundation gemstones? Hardly! Nor should it matter to any of us:

But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who [should be] the greatest. And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, [the same] shall be last of all, and servant of all. – Mark 9:34-35

Notably the twelve apostles are honored by the colorful foundation stones of the New Jerusalem, the twelve sons of Jacob are honored by the twelve gates of pearl. I believe this is an important metaphor that applies to Christianity as compared to Judaism before Christ.

We Christians are to walk in His Light:

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. – I John 5:5-7

Light passing through gemstones produces different colors and this, I am sure, is an important element of the metaphor. Some of us are red like rubies, others blue like sapphires, some green like emeralds, some violet like amethysts. And some of us can only reflect light, like an onyx, it does not pass through us. Of all the gemstones, only the diamond does not add its own color to the Light.

Thus it is my goal to be transparent in Him so that His Light can shine through me without obstruction or tinting. But in the end I’ll be happy not to be onyx. LOL!

[wmfights]

"Once again, thank you for pointing me to "the Fathers", the warm greeting of the brethren when I joined this thread has inspired me to return the favor. This great work that we will post here will answer a lot of questions, but of course, raise a lot more as well. But that's life."
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I can't tell you how much I'm enjoying this discussion and the obvious scholarship involved. However, I keep wondering why would the Church in Rome not have corrected the error in recognizing who founded the church there. They would have known who was their founder, or did this begin so many years after the fact no one was left who could refute it?