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To: Between the Lines; HarleyD

BTL: "As for the hierarchy in Heaven; we know that there is a hierarchy among the angels and in Matthew 20 Jesus in His conversation with James and John about who would sit to His left and right, clearly indicates that there is a hierarchy amongst men in Heaven also."

So do you equate hierarchy with rewards? In other words, do you think position in the hierarchy is determined by the amount or quality of works on earth?

I agree there are hierarchies in heaven just as I see hierarchies in creation and in the visible church. Yet I do not see these as rewards - merely a God-ordained position given to each part of the whole.

BTL: "We have no explanation of what this hierarchy is like but we do have have a couple of clues.
Luke 9:48 . . . For he who is least among you all—he is the greatest.
Mark 9:35 . . . "If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all."

From the scripture you have quoted, it seems evident that God discourages us from seeking crowns or rewards or prominence. In effect, any hierarchy that would result from the first being last and vice versa would be best served if we had no knowledge of rewards (assuming they exist).

God created each of us with gifts, capacities, and abilities. We are each unique and play a different role in His divine plan. Any "reward" or "position" granted us by God is due to his grace, love and compassion for us - nothing within ourselves. To think that we deserve some greater reward or "capacity" implies that we have something within us that merits this increase - something we could accomplish that is outside of God's doing or Christ's sacrifice.




11 posted on 08/24/2006 7:14:17 AM PDT by visually_augmented (I was blind, but now I see)
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To: visually_augmented; Between the Lines
I agree there are hierarchies in heaven just as I see hierarchies in creation and in the visible church. Yet I do not see these as rewards - merely a God-ordained position given to each part of the whole.

This is rather an interesting topic, v-a.

There are hierarchies of angels of which the scriptures are clear. My first inclination was to say the are hierarchies of believers as well, much along the lines of what BTL stated. After I've thought about this (the whole last two days) I'm not sure I believe there are hierarchies of believers. The scriptures state that we will be "like Christ" ruling over the angels. So, while we'll never be part of the Godhead, I see believers as being on the same level ruling over God's creation.

Now, all that being said, if we recall John and James' mother asking for them to rule on Christ's right and left, doesn't this mean there is a hierarchy of rulership? Christ didn't say there isn't such a position but simply that it wasn't His to give.

12 posted on 08/24/2006 7:35:47 AM PDT by HarleyD ("Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures" Luk 24:45)
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To: visually_augmented; HarleyD
VA:"So do you equate hierarchy with rewards? In other words, do you think position in the hierarchy is determined by the amount or quality of works on earth?"

Yes and no. There is a ruling hierarchy that we could never belong to and then there is a hierarchy of service of which we will all belong. I believe each of us in our glorified state will have a special place of service related to that which we render now on earth. Ultimately our position of service in heaven depends upon God's sovereign choice (the gifts and opportunities He gives us) and our response to that choice. By our faithfulness, prayers, and good works, we merit rewards. We do not put God in our debt so much as we enlarge the capacity of our souls, our capacity to receive His life and to serve and glorify Him.

VA:"Any "reward" or "position" granted us by God is due to his grace, love and compassion for us - nothing within ourselves."

I agree. But we must respond to Him that we might receive His grace and we must respond to the good works, which He prepared in advance for us to do so that we might receive His rewards for us.

If what bothers you about rewards in Heaven is that they are to motivate us, you might find this quote from John Calvin interesting.


14 posted on 08/26/2006 10:12:23 PM PDT by Between the Lines (Be careful how you live your life, it may be the only gospel anyone reads.)
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