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To: Campion; jo kus; NYer; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; .30Carbine; joanie-f; MHGinTN; Kitty Mittens; ...
Campion wrote:"By the same token, faith without works is dead faith with no power to save. I didn't make that up, it's a verbatim quote from the Epistle of James."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes, you (or one of your teachers) did "make that up".
And, no, it is not "a verbatim quote from the Epistle of James".

IMO, you would be wise to heed Deuteronomy:

(1) Deut. 4:2—’Ye shall not add unto the Word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.’


As cited by jo kus in #56:

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also[.]"
James 2:26

Note that "little red dot[.] in the scripture passage. It denotes the end of the sentence, the end of the verse, and, in this case, the end of the chapter.

You added "faith with no power to save".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In fact, I was uncomfortable with jo kus' "also" -- so I looked up parallel translations:

ASV: For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead. BBE: For as the body without the spirit is dead even so faith without works is dead. DBY: For as the body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. KJV: For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. WEY: For just as a human body without a spirit is lifeless, so also faith is lifeless if it is unaccompanied by obedience. WEB: For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead. YLT: for as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also the faith apart from the works is dead.

Note that only the 1611 English translation of a [Latin] translation [from Greek] (KJV) has the added "also".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also, to avoid "cherry picking the Scriptures" (as "Bible thumpers" are wont to do), I advise reading verses in context:

James 2:

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 
15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 
16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 
17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
 18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." 
      Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

 20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 
21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 
22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 
23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 

26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Footnotes:

James 2:8 Lev. 19:18
James 2:11 Exodus 20:14; Deut. 5:18
James 2:11 Exodus 20:13; Deut. 5:17
James 2:20 Some early manuscripts dead
James 2:23 Gen. 15:6

The way I understand those passages, "Works" or "Deeds" are the evidence of true, saving faith -- not an added requirement thereunto.


If I may, I'd like to create an analogy to illustrate my viewpoint:

Consider a "blank" cartridge (one with only primer and powder) versus a"live", "fully loaded" cartridge (one with primer, powder and a bullet).

Although both make the appropriate noise (claiming to have "faith"),
only the "real" cartridge makes a hole in the target ( produces "Works", "Deeds", "Results") as evidence that it is genuine.

OTOH, a hole in the paper is not required for the fully-loaded cartridge to be a genuine, usable ("live") cartridge.

~~~~~~~~~~~

My Lord, as a result of my faith in Him, has made me "live": "complete" ("with primer, powder and shot") -- "saved".
Although it is my joy to produce works for Him, (holes in my targets)
my failure to do so cannot negate His great work of grace and salvation in me.

28 “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand” (John 10:28-29). (KJV, my emphasis added...)

"No man" ("no one" in most other translations) -- including 'me, myself, and I'
(by failing to produce "works" ) can negate His eternal gift to me.


<SOAPBOX MODE>

(Folks, it is difficult enough for us to commune in fellowship over difficult issues like this
-- without "making up Scripture 'on the fly'"...)

</SOAPBOX MODE>

93 posted on 08/12/2006 1:15:14 PM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias...)
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To: TXnMA

Well and truly stated! As I always told students, "If my retaining the Salvation He has granted to me was dependent upon me being able to preserve that Salavation, then it would be a weak thing indeed, for 'me' is a proven sinner, redeemed ONLY by His Grace toward me."


94 posted on 08/12/2006 1:35:41 PM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote life support for others.)
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To: TXnMA
In fact, I was uncomfortable with jo kus' "also" -- so I looked up parallel translations:

Sorry the Scriptures make you uncomfortable. Quite frankly, none of your other versions change the meaning of the version that I cited, the DRC:

"For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead." ASV

"Even so", "also", "and so" - same thing. If you don't have works of love, your faith is meaningless. It is clear that James is telling us that SAYING you have faith means nothing if you do not have works of love. He even gives real world examples!

James asks:

"shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?" James 2:14

It is amply clear that faith alone cannot save by this one verse. But the whole context merely echoes James Chapter 2. A Christian without love has a dead faith, a faith that cannot save. By trying to make the claim that works comes from the "faith engine" is false, because the "faith engine" does not produce works of love. GOD does while He abides within the Christian! It is faulty theology to presume that "faith" alone saves, as James clearly sets out to prove.

James and Paul merely express the two sides of the same coin.

Faith without works is dead (James)

Works without faith is dead (Paul)

You will need both love and faith to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by charity. " Gal 5:6

Faith AND works BOTH come from God. Faith is not a "generator" of good works. The vine is Jesus Christ. Our source of goodness is the Holy Spirit. NOT an attribute called "faith"... IF faith "automatically" led to good works of love, then you might want to reconsider the entire reason why ALL of the letters that follow the Acts of the Apostles have moral and ethical exhortations. IF faith "naturally" led to love, there would be NO NEED of such exhortations, they would come as one moved down the "conveyor belt" of faith...

Regards

95 posted on 08/12/2006 2:36:44 PM PDT by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Crysostom - Phil 2:8)
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To: TXnMA; Campion; jo kus; NYer; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; .30Carbine; joanie-f; MHGinTN
Yes, you (or one of your teachers) did "make that up". And, no, it is not "a verbatim quote from the Epistle of James".

The Bible is clear that faith holds a first and prominent role in the salvation of every person.

Heb 10:38
But my just one shall live by faith ...
Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him (God) ...

The Bible is equally clear on the saving role of good works in the lives of the faithful.

1 Pet 2:12
Maintain good conduct among the Gentiles, so that if they speak of you as evildoers, they may observe your good works and glorify God on the day of visitation.
Rev 2:2
I know your works, your labor, and your endurance ...
Mt 5:16
Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father.
Mt 16:27
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.
Mt 25:34-36
Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'

The Bible makes it clear that there must be a balanced relationship between our faith and its expression in good works.

James 2:14-18
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
1 Cor 15:58
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be firm, steadfast, always fully devoted to the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.
Heb 6:10
For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love you have demonstrated for his name by having served and continuing to serve the holy ones.
James 2:20-22
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
Mt 16:27
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.
1 Cor 3:8
The one who plants and the one who waters are equal, and each will receive wages in proportion to his labor.
Col 3:23-24
Whatever you do, do from the heart, as for the Lord and not for others, knowing that you will receive from the Lord the due payment of the inheritance.

The Bible indicates that it is wrong to disturb the balance of works expressing a life of faith. Man is not saved by faith alone.

James 2:24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Nor is man saved by works alone.

Rom 9:31-32
Israel, who pursued the law of righteousness, did not attain to that law ... because they did it not by faith, but as if it could be done by works.
Gal 3:11
And that no one is justified before God by the law is clear, for "the one who is righteous by faith will live."

The Bible declares that salvation is a gift of God alone and constantly reaffirms that faith has a primary role in that salvation.

Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast.
Heb 6:1
Therefore, let us leave behind the basic teaching about Christ and advance to maturity, without laying the foundation all over again: repentance from dead works and faith in God,
Heb 9:14
... how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to worship the living God.
2 Tim 1:9
He saved us and called us to a holy life, not according to our works but according to his own design and the grace bestowed on us in Christ Jesus before time began,
Titus 3:4-5
... the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared, not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy.
Rom 3:27-28
What occasion is there then for boasting? It is ruled out. On what principle, that of works? No, rather on the principle of faith. For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Gal 2:16
(We) know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

referencer

97 posted on 08/12/2006 3:57:26 PM PDT by NYer
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To: TXnMA; Campion; jo kus; NYer; betty boop; Alamo-Girl
The way I understand those passages, "Works" or "Deeds" are the evidence of true, saving faith -- not an added requirement thereunto.

Thank you, TXnMA, for the ping and for your post to the truth. Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

As John says, His commandments are not burdensome.

"Love one another."

This same commandment we had from the beginning (as John reiterates), which single commandment Jesus made very clear to all who are willing to receive the Truth:

Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him,
“Which is the first commandment of all?”

Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is:
‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.
And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart,
with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’
This is the first commandment.
And the second, like it, is this:
‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
There is no other commandment greater than these.”
Mark 12:28-31

Ravi Zacharias said the other day (click here and go about 6:30 into the realplayer broadcast), that this "greatest command" is indeed One Command: 1a) and 1b)! (:

He added that what Jesus was in essence teaching was,
"If you know Me, and you love your neighbor, all the other 613 [Rabbinical Laws] emerge from those two [Commands of God]."

Again, quoting John, "How can a man say he loves God who is unseen,
if he loves not his brother whom he can see?"

The unseen love is first, and all love that is seen flows from this,
being the manifestation of the first, and its proof. Amen.

The entire law is summed up in a single command:
"Love your neighbor as yourself."
Galatians 5:14

In other words the "WORK" is this: LOVE.

We must learn to love as Jesus did,
and this we do by believing (loving) His Word and walking in (loving) His Spirit. Amen.

103 posted on 08/13/2006 2:41:01 AM PDT by .30Carbine (May God be the Glory)
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