Posted on 08/08/2006 12:04:25 PM PDT by NYer
Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
I have trouble understanding why a large number of anti-Catholics will fervently ask people on earth to pray for them, their families, friends, etc., but believe it's insane to ask the same of those in heaven who lived righteous lives and are with God.
No. It was from the Alabama studios.
Marcus was hosting the show, and he interviewed the President of the Chesterton Society, a Jewish convert, and a convert from a "Nazarene" church. The last story was sad, in that the former pastor's wife left him when he decided to convert. The three stories were beautiful.
A very interesting group - the Jewish convert is Roy Schoeman, author of Salvtion is from the Jews . The former Nazarene is Doug Gonzales. You can listen to their stories that aired on The Journey Home at that EWTN link. Click on Past Programs, then scroll through the list. Doug Gonzales appeared on 4/5/2004 and Roy Schoeman is sometime in January 2005. Both of their conversion stories left a strong impression on me. The President of the Chesterton Society would be Dale Ahlquist.
Great program, marvelous guests and amazing stories.
You took the words right out of my mouth!
I'm Catholic and married to a Southern Baptist (although he has gone to the Catholic church since before we were married)... I've learned a lot in the years we've been married, from his family. What they don't see is the whole 'communion' of people. Catholics don't differentiate between God's people on earth and God's people in heaven. Therefore if I ask you today to pray for me, and tomorrow you die, I can still ask you to pray for me. We are one community on earth and in heaven.
Because what they're really after, at least most of them, is a club to bash the Church with. IMO.
Having listened to many conversion stories, a legitimate stumbling block seems to be the veneration of Mary, and her exalted status within the Church.
This objection can be overcome with a proper understanding of the role of the queen mother in the Davidic kingdom, as presented in the Old Testament.
*Medical experts say hardening of the arteries is a result of repeatedly playing the steep hole #9 at the Golgotha Golf Course :)
>>What was rejected was "Reformation theology".<<
The only "theology" that I'm interested in is Biblical theology... "Reformation theology" clearly has its problems... Do I believe that I've got it all down pat? Not at all, but I do recognize heresy when I see it and am able to refute it Biblically.
So, what "heresy" are you "recognizing" in order to "refute it biblically".
>>By the way, can you point to me where it says in the Bible that I am saved by faith ALONE?<<
Ephesian 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God. 9 Not of works, that no man may glory.
I don't see anywhere there that we are saved by faith ALONE. The English language does not require the word "alone" in that verse. It merely says we are saved by faith without saying that other things are necessary, as well. Elsewhere, Paul DOES say we are saved by many other things besides intellectual belief and trust in God.
Regards
>>Ephesian 2:8
I don't see anywhere there that we are saved by faith ALONE. The English language does not require the word "alone" in that verse. It merely says we are saved by faith without saying that other things are necessary, as well. Elsewhere, Paul DOES say we are saved by many other things besides intellectual belief and trust in God.<<
I suggest that you read Ephesians 2:8,9 again... Then explain to me what it is that you don't understand about "not of works, lest any man should boast.."
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." Eph 2:8,9
Sir, I have read this verse a number of times, not only of my own volition, but as a result of Protestants who suggest that it is the answer and proof to Sola Fide! If I may, let me give you a worldly example, one which will not immediately have you biased:
"For by a walk you have scored a run, not by a basehit, lest anyone should boast."
Does this mean that one can ONLY score a run in baseball by a walk or a basehit? What about an error? What about a balk? My sentence says nothing about them, nor does the Scripture say anything beyond faith and works.
Logically, Just because A = Salvation, but B NOT = Salvation, that says nothing about "C"...
Scripture makes NO statement about faith being ALONE (unless you go to James 2..., where it says we are NOT saved by faith alone!) Paul ONLY makes the statement that my works do not save, and that faith is AT LEAST ONE of the requirements that do save. NOWHERE does the Scripture say:
you are saved by faith, not by repentance".
You are saved by faith, not by hope."
You are saved by faith, not by love."
You are saved by faith, not by obedience to God."
It merely says "you are saved by faith, not by your OWN works".
But doesn't Scripture make it clear that I, Joe Christian, am NOT doing ANYTHING alone WHEN I abide in Christ? Doesn't St. Paul make that crystal clear? Doesn't Jesus?
"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.{good} John 15:4-5
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me" Gal 2:20
And later
"For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love." Gal 5:5,6
This verse is one of many that St. Paul uses to tell us that faith is NOT alone and salvific!
My final comment?
"though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13:2
You, along with Sola Fide, hold to non-Biblical theology.
Regards
>>>>"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." Eph 2:8,9 <<<<
>>It merely says "you are saved by faith, not by your OWN works".
But doesn't Scripture make it clear that I, Joe Christian, am NOT doing ANYTHING alone WHEN I abide in Christ? Doesn't St. Paul make that crystal clear? Doesn't Jesus?<<
What is "crystal clear" is the fact that our salvation is a free gift that accepted by faith. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy, he saved us...." Titus
The verses that you posted all point to a simple fact... That apart from Christ and His power in us.. We are unable to do anything.. John 15
Where many are confused (even some "solo fides") is a misunderstanding about good works... Good works are the FRUIT of salvation, not the ROOT of salvation. It is absolutely correct to question one's salvation if there is no fruit.. If there is no love, joy, peace, etc.. If there is no fruit, and an absence of good works, then one may assume that there is no "ROOT" of salvation..
"Abiding in Christ" is one of the evidences that one is saved... When one "abides in Christ" a changed life results... "IF any man be in Christ, old things pass away and all things become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17 New life in Christ will produce the fruits salvation... "Good works" will never result in salvation...
There will not be any self boasting in Heaven... All there will confess that they owe 100% of their soul's salvation to Christ and what he accomplished by His own death, burial, and resurrection.
"The wages of sin is death, but the (free) gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ the Lord." Romans 6:23
If we think we can bring our "good works" to God as an "offering" for our salvation.. We are taking upon ourselve the religion of Cain.. We all know who Cain was... He's the one that rejected God's way and established his own way... Which was unacceptable to God...
That I agree with. But it doesn't follow that faith alone saves. Scripture EXPLICITLY says that faith alone DOES NOT SAVE! NOWHERE in my reply to you did I say that my work ALONE save! The Scriptures says that explicitly.
I'd quote most of the second half of James 2, but the ending will be sufficient:
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." James 2:26
The verses that you posted all point to a simple fact... That apart from Christ and His power in us.. We are unable to do anything..
That's right. Nothing I can do alone is meritorious for salvation. And again, faith alone does not save, either.
Good works are the FRUIT of salvation, not the ROOT of salvation. It is absolutely correct to question one's salvation if there is no fruit.. If there is no love, joy, peace, etc.. If there is no fruit, and an absence of good works, then one may assume that there is no "ROOT" of salvation
Tell me, where does the Bible say expicitly that good works necessarily MUST follow faith? I already quoted you something from St. Paul that destroys that "idea": "...and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing" 1 Cor 13:2
Think it over for a second before you skip reading this verse again. If I have ALL FAITH, but HAVE NO LOVE, I AM NOTHING! That doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement for faith always leading to works of love! And along with James 2, we have a total destruction of any theological concept that tries to say that faith MUST yield works (of love). The NT Scripture is FULL of people with faith, but no or little love!!! Practically EVERY letter of St. Paul is full of exhortations to "saved" Christians to love, because they were NOT!!!
And secondly, both faith AND love come from God! Faith is not something from you, nor is works of love! Both are gifts of grace from God. But if you don't have love, that faith that God gave you is of no salvific help.
The problem, as I see it, is that your definition of works is not biblical. "Works", according to St. Paul, is not everything a person does. It is the attitude that when I do something, I deserve a payment! When I "work", whether it is obeying the commandments, or whatever, and demand a reward, what I did is not of grace. St. Paul defines it in Romans:
"But unto him that works, the reward is not reckoned as grace, but as debt Romans 4:4
This is KEY to understanding St. Paul on justification! It is NOT a good deed that is worthless, (as Paul continuously exhorts Christians to do good and avoid evil so as to make their election sure) but the attitude, not unlike the Pharisees, that thinks that one can make God owe a man salvation. St. Paul explicitly denies this attitude has any merit in Romans 3 and 4.
"Abiding in Christ" is one of the evidences that one is saved...
Depends on what you mean by "saved". Scripture doesn't give us the idea of "Once saved, always saved". But it does tell us that a person is healed (saved) when they receive Baptism, the gift of the Spirit. But again, it doesn't follow that we will REMAIN healed.
There will not be any self boasting in Heaven... All there will confess that they owe 100% of their soul's salvation to Christ and what he accomplished by His own death, burial, and resurrection.
That is true in a sense. But we are not saved by Christ's grace and work if we refuse His graces. We ALWAYS have the ability to reject the Spirit - until the day we die. While even this choice is molded by God Himself, there is still a sense of cooperation in my choice to follow God or to follow my own self. Again, nothing that I do ALONE is salvific. But in Christ, I am a new creation - my actions are raised to a new level, as Christ is working within me the will and ability to do meritorious deeds.
If we think we can bring our "good works" to God as an "offering" for our salvation.. We are taking upon ourselve the religion of Cain.. We all know who Cain was... He's the one that rejected God's way and established his own way... Which was unacceptable to God...
Wrong. The Bible doesn't say that at all.
"Then the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest good, it shall certainly be accepted; and if thou doest not good, sin lies at the door. And his desire shall be unto thee, but thou must rule over him." Gen 4:6-7
Your interpretation is clearly incorrect. Correct interpretation of the Scriptures, again, point to St. Paul's version of what work is. Cain felt he was entitled to a reward, that God owed him, while Abel apparently did not - as BOTH did good deeds, on the outside, but Cain's was not acceptable because of his inner dispositions. Abel's was out of love and thanksgiving, Cain was out of "where's my reward?", or at least "I am doing this because I have to, not because I want to". Clearly, NO ONE can make God into a debtor. THAT is what St Paul is saying throughout Romans and Galatians regarding justification, not that good deeds are bad!
I suggest that if you were to go through St. Paul's writings with this idea in mind, that no one can EARN salvation by his good deeds, but abiding in Christ, our good deeds of love (with proper inner disposition instilled by the Spirit) are NECESSARY for salvation, the Bible will make much more sense. Plus, it happens to be the way the earliest Christians interpreted the Apostolic letters, as well.
Regards
The words of this hymn, which I love, stands in stark contrast to the Cain based religions of the World. Cain was angry because God said that his offering was not acceptable... God even provided a sin offering for Cain, but Cain rejected God's way.
Jesus Christ paid the full price of our salvation. It is a humbling thing to receive such a great gift.. As for my own personal experience... I just "gave up" trying to earn God's salvation on my terms, and by the grace of God, and prompted by the Spirit of God, and the word of God just simply accepted God's free gift on His terms.
Just as I am, without one plea,
But that Thy blood was shed for me,
And that Thou bidst me come to Thee,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
Just as I am, and waiting not
To rid my soul of one dark blot,
To Thee whose blood can cleanse each spot,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
Just as I am, though tossed about
With many a conflict, many a doubt,
Fightings and fears within, without,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
Just as I am, poor, wretched, blind;
Sight, riches, healing of the mind,
Yea, all I need in Thee to find,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
Just as I am, Thou wilt receive,
Wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve;
Because Thy promise I believe,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
>>>>There will not be any self boasting in Heaven... All there will confess that they owe 100% of their soul's salvation to Christ and what he accomplished by His own death, burial, and resurrection.<<<<
>>That is true in a sense.<<
It's Biblical theology, my friend.
>>But we are not saved by Christ's grace and work if we refuse His graces. We ALWAYS have the ability to reject the Spirit - until the day we die. While even this choice is molded by God Himself, there is still a sense of cooperation in my choice to follow God or to follow my own self. Again, nothing that I do ALONE is salvific. But in Christ, I am a new creation - my actions are raised to a new level, as Christ is working within me the will and ability to do meritorious deeds.<<
For the sake of argument.. Let's say that what you are trying say is true.. Has there ever been a time in your own personal life where you believed that you you had done enough "meritorious deeds" to warrant God's salvation?
For the sake of argument... Let's say (and I admit that this is speculation on my part).. Let's say that you felt that you had reached a point where you have been able to say... Yes, I believe that I have done enough "meritorious deeds"... What standard do you use to come to such a conclusion?
Remember... We're talking about our own personal standing before God.. Not man's estimation of whether or not we "measure up"... Do you have an "assurance verse" that tells you when, by your own "meritorious deeds" that you possess eternal life?
And why was Cain's offering not acceptable? Do you remember the verse from Genesis 4 I cited?
The problem with Cain (and, to use your definition, "Cain-based" religions) is that he tried to earn a favorable position in God's eyes; "If I offer you this, you owe me blessings, God". This is not the inner disposition of a lover - which is what God seeks in man.
As for my own personal experience... I just "gave up" trying to earn God's salvation on my terms, and by the grace of God, and prompted by the Spirit of God, and the word of God just simply accepted God's free gift on His terms.
That's just the beginning. However, with this freedom comes responsibility of fulfilling the royal law - the law of love, which is "not a heavy burden". It is one that the Spirit inspires within us to will to fulfill. Thus, God provides the faith AND the love necessary for eternal union with Him who IS. Thus, faith ALONE does not save.
"For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love" Gal 5:6
No salvation without faith and love. A loveless faith, as St. Paul says, is worthless (1 Cor 13:2)
Regards
NO! That is one of the worst sins, the sin of religious pride. Whatever I do, even in Christ, doesn't earn me salvation. I do, however, understand that God is righteous and has promised me a reward IF I heed His commandments to love my neighbors and Him. I am not OWED anything, no matter what I do. This attitude is unlike the one who presumptuously says "I'm saved already for heaven". This is not biblical. "Being saved", in the past tense, refers to entrance into the Church, being freed from the slavery of sin and being made children of God. It does NOT follow, however, that such a one will receive the reward in heaven. Christ makes that perfectly clear in several parables, particularly the three in Matthew 25, but also the weeds and the wheat.
Let's say that you felt that you had reached a point where you have been able to say... Yes, I believe that I have done enough "meritorious deeds"... What standard do you use to come to such a conclusion?
We don't. Catholic teaching says that a man can NEVER merit the reward of 'final perseverance'. We can be optimistically confident that we have obeyed God - but we rely on God's righteousness to reward us, not that God owes us for being good. There is a difference! One must ask for salvation - it is never owed us! Even the greatest of saints have said as much. EVEN THEY were not or could not say for certain that they were heaven-bound upon their deaths. That is because Catholics realize that God is sovereign and we cannot place God in debt.
Do you have an "assurance verse" that tells you when, by your own "meritorious deeds" that you possess eternal life?
No. Salvation is not assured. God will judge us based on the direction of our lives, e.g. Matthew 25:31-45. We can be sure that the Spirit is within us if we are obeying the Commandments (which we can only do as a result of Him within us) and we know that we will not be condemned if He abides in us (1 John 5:12). However, this confidence does not translate into an assurance - that places God in a debtor position. The wages of sin is death, eternal life is a gift. Gifts are not owed us, no matter OUR faith or love...
Regards
Maybe he's a former Evangelical 'cause his hatred and bigotry didn't fit in with Evangelicals.
Your implication that Evangelicals are bigoted and racist is in itself...bigoted and racist.
Perhaps you should try painting your word pictures with a smaller brush.
It would be TOO easy to post "I was a former Catholic" threads. Just type that into a search engine and see what pops up.
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