Long Journey to Rome (Former Southern Baptist Pastor Now a Traveling Crusader for Catholic Church)

San Diego News Notes ^ | ANNA KRESTYN

[xzins]

Those cast iron kind really hurt, don't they? :>)

[Incorrigible]

Michael Cumbie and a partner of his came to my parish last year.  He was promoting his renewal mission.  (The Pastor, born in Ireland, is very conservative, yet he's very into the Renewal movement.)

I admit, as a cradle Catholic, I found it humorous to hear the converted preaching to us!  He didn't sell me but I'm more of a sedate worshiper and prefer more traditional (well, traditional N.O.!) Masses more to my liking.

 

[mckenzie7]

What a beautiful story!

[politicallyincarrect]

>>Should we balance this thread with the testimonies of converted priests?<<

Good point... But having read this thread, I don't think there would be much tolerance for it...

Whenever I read a story like this it reminds me NEVER to put my trust in what anyone says... Even if they're a "Southern Baptist Pastor"... Because you never know for sure what they believe...

There are so many fundamental differences between the Southern Baptists and the RCC that one would have to wonder which came first... Rejection of Biblical theology or acceptance of RCC doctrine... I would suspect the former rather than the latter...

[politicallyincarrect]

>>Should we balance this thread with the testimonies of converted priests?<<

Good point... But having read this thread, I don't think there would be much tolerance for it...

Whenever I read a story like this it reminds me NEVER to put my trust in what anyone says... Even if they're a "Southern Baptist Pastor"... Because you never know for sure what they believe...

There are so many fundamental differences between the Southern Baptists and the RCC that one would have to wonder which came first... Rejection of Biblical theology or acceptance of RCC doctrine... I would suspect the former rather than the latter...

[Campion]

There are so many fundamental differences between the Southern Baptists and the RCC that one would have to wonder which came first... Rejection of Biblical theology or acceptance of RCC doctrine.

Um, I think he concluded that "Biblical theology" and "RCC doctrine" were one and the same thing.

Funny how y'all always say you're in favor of people reading the Bible for themselves, but when they start drawing Catholic conclusions from what they read, well, we can't be having any of that, can we ... ??

[politicallyincarrect]

>>Funny how y'all always say you're in favor of people reading the Bible for themselves, but when they start drawing Catholic conclusions from what they read, well, we can't be having any of that, can we ... ??<<

I guess you're claiming that Biblical theology and RCC doctrine is the same thing? OK... Where in the Bible does it say that Mary is a mediator, or intercessor? According to the Bible there is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.

Verse Search Results (The Douay-Rheims Bible)

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God: and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:

[GCC Catholic]

Before attacking the personal faith of Mr. Cumbie or any other Catholics (especially converts to Catholicism), I would ask that you listen to his testimony to understand the reasons why he converted to what he (and I) believe to be the fullness of Biblical Faith, not the rejection of it.

Here is a link to the show (from EWTN's podcasting webpage):
http://download.rbn.com/ewtn/download/jh.mp3

(Please note that EWTN only posts shows for one week on their site, so if you come back to this link next week it will be a different episode.)

Insofar as the Catholic explanation of 1 Timothy 2:5, I'm sure that it can be found on several threads here on FR, as well as on several Catholic apologetics websites such as Catholic Answers. Here is one explanation in an article from This Rock magazine.

[politicallyincarrect]

>>Before attacking the personal faith of Mr. Cumbie or any other Catholics .... <<

I appreciate the fact that you did not accuse me of attacking Mr. Cumbie personally... However, I do not apologize for "attacking" his beliefs or any others that hold to the same anti-Biblical theology that he does...

It doesn't matter what Mr. Cumbie's personal reasons were for joining the RCC... What he says he believes now is a matter of public record... And is fair game.. If the RCC want to push his "conversion" as a positive thing.. Then there shouldn't be any objection to another point of view.

[GCC Catholic]

However, I do not apologize for "attacking" his beliefs or any others that hold to the same anti-Biblical theology that he does...

On what grounds can you determine what is "anti-Biblical" aside from those that exist based on your own personal interpretation of the Bible? How can you say that your interpretation (which I would assume agrees with the interpretation of the pastor of your Church), is any better or worse than Mr. Cumbie's (which happens to agree with the Catholic Church)?

Feel free to continue to discuss, but I ask you for the sake of truth to listen to his testimony as well, even though you will probably disagree.

As for me, I'm going to sleep; it's past 1 a.m. here on the East Coast.

[NYer]

I found it humorous to hear the converted preaching to us!  He didn't sell me but I'm more of a sedate worshiper and prefer more traditional (well, traditional N.O.!) Masses more to my liking.

Mr. Cumbie commented on how much he enjoys meeting cradle catholics with deep seated devotion to the liturgy.

Like so many other converts - Michael Cumbie is driven to 'wake up' the sleeping catholics and set their hearts on fire with understanding and love for the Mass. It was a wonderful interview and I hope you have the opportunity to watch it.

[NYer]

What order was this priest?

I don't know; does it make a difference?

But at the consecration I was in tears, because I could feel the "real presence" of Christ in the church.

It's an awesome feeling, humbling yet earth shattering. One saint was given the grace to 'see' the angels present during the Consecration. Wish I could remember her name. Interestingly enough, one of the pre-communion hymns we chant says: "Hosts of heaven, stand with us at the altar". Truly, heaven on earth.

[Convert from ECUSA]

" can say some men with their own agendas came out of the council and tried to use the phrase, 'in the spirit of the second Vatican Council ... we have to change, etc, etc.... ' I think the Council was God's way of trying to bring renewal to the Church in the twenty-first century. I have to say, all the things I read about Catholicism -- the rubrics of the mass, the silence of the sacred space, the kneelers and the formality of dress -- it was all so refreshing to me. But when I actually saw the typical Catholic churches, it was very different. If I had walked into a modern, updated, liberal Catholic parish I would never have become Catholic. Because it's so much like the Protestant environment that I left. I was looking for structure, and respect for the sacred, and love for the holy, and we didn't have it. And many parishes, I'm afraid, have become just like that "in the spirit of Vatican II" of making the church a "gathering space" -- even though it is still sacred space we don't act like it is. So I think some things have been very detrimental to the faith and have even caused tens of thousands of Catholics to walk out and lose their faith. And again, that's not the Council's fault but just the statistics. Of the thirty-three percent of Catholics who still attend mass regularly, sixty-six percent no longer believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. This is the crisis in the church, not pedophilia. This loss of faith in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.."

Ding, ding, ding! Especially what he said: "If I had walked into a modern, updated, liberal Catholic parish I would never have become Catholic" - in contrast to the beautiful Catholic parish he walked into with the altar rails, marble, etc. (something that looked like a church and not a gymnasium). In some respects, his story is like mine. NYer, thanks for posting this!

[siunevada]

Where in the Bible does it say that Mary is a mediator

Apparently the Catholics haven't gone over the brink into total insanity just yet, the Catechism agrees with the Bible:

480 Jesus Christ is true God and true man, in the unity of his divine person; for this reason he is the one and only mediator between God and men.

[Wonder Warthog]

"There are so many fundamental differences between the Southern Baptists and the RCC that one would have to wonder which came first... Rejection of Biblical theology or acceptance of RCC doctrine... I would suspect the former rather than the latter..."

Actually, it is more likely that he converted because he ACCEPTED "Biblical theology". The Bible itself explicitly teaches (St. Paul) that it itself is NOT the sole inspired Word of God (i.e. that "sola Scriptura" IS NOT BIBLICAL). Add to that the fact that for four hundred years after the death of Christ, there WAS no Bible.

What was rejected was "Reformation theology".

[Aquinasfan]

Last night, I turned on EWTN in time to catch most of The Journey Home.

Was this the broadcast from San Francisco?

Marcus was hosting the show, and he interviewed the President of the Chesterton Society, a Jewish convert, and a convert from a "Nazarene" church. The last story was sad, in that the former pastor's wife left him when he decided to convert. The three stories were beautiful.

[Aquinasfan]

Where in the Bible does it say that Mary is a mediator, or intercessor?

Where in the Bible does it say that all doctrine is in the Bible?

And for that matter, where is Luther's, "the Bible alone" theory in the Bible?

FWIW, the saints in heaven are mediators, at least according to the Bible.

Revelation 5:8

And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

[siunevada]

Interesting that he says this, as my SBC pastor says the opposite. This is a good illustration of the significant variance you can get with baptist churches.

I did a search on 'speaking in tongues southern baptist' and read a couple of news stories on the proposed ban on 'private prayer language' for missionaries. That seems to be the most recent example of the variety of understanding about the manifestations of the Spirit within the SBC. The USA Today story from April seemed fairly even-handed, people on both sides were quoted.

[Incorrigible]

Mr. Cumbie commented on how much he enjoys meeting cradle catholics

Yep. He said as much on the pulpit that day.

I don't disagree that there are many, many sleeping Catholics born into the faith. Urban parishes, like the one I grew up in, have been hit very hard by this despite the influx of Hispanic Catholics who attend mass at about the same percentage rate as other Catholics.

The working class Irish built the Churches they worshiped in and sent their kids to the parish schools that they also built. As well as supplied the labor of priests and nuns. Of course, that was when my own grandparents emmigrated in the early 1900's. Today's immigrant Catholics (except maybe the Polish) don't have the same fervor and sadly, neither do many of the native born Catholics.

I blame the government welfare mentality for this as well as the cynicism of the age. A powerful Church is a competitor to an ever power hungry government.

I don't know that Mr. Cumbie's charismatic evangelism will turn it around but I don't begrudge him for trying so hard.

[jo kus]

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God: and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:

Perhaps you should consider the context of 1 Timothy 2:5 and read the preceding 4 verses that discount your particular interpretation...

"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour" 1 Tim 2:1-3

Clearly, Paul is not saying that Jesus is the ONLY intercessor. If you check more closely, Paul is refering to the fact that Jesus is God and Man, thus, making Him the "go-between" between God for our sake - since He IS both God and man. Paul is certainly not saying that Jesus is our only intercessor, as the verses above show.

By the way, can you point to me where it says in the Bible that I am saved by faith ALONE?

Regards