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To: bornacatholic; narses; sittnick; ninenot
When Jesus Christ drove the moneychangers from the Temple, those driven out were described in Scripture as, well, "moneychangers." God is the ultimate author of Scripture. Was He being uncharitable? Did He fail to give the "charitable" spin desired by those driven out by saying that He drove some practitioners of free enterprise from the Temple?

Last time I checked, John Paul the Great excommunicated Fellay and his fellow travelers in schism and declared their movement a schism. NOTHING has changed since andf Ecclesia Dei is in full force.

We Catholics (the ones in communion with our diocesan bishops and with the Holy See) have a traditional remedy for sin which we received on the Highest Authority. It is called repentance through legitimate authority and the humble receipt of forhgiveness. This process is available in some form to Fellay and to his fellow excommunicated schismatics. They should avail themselves of the mercy of God by confessing their crimes, undoing the scandal of their despising of papacy and popes, and begging forgiveness. If not, not.

There are plenty of "objectively valid reasons" such as Fellay's willingness to be consecrated an outlaw bishop by outlaw Archbishop Marcel and Fellay's continuation of the despicably cancerous SSPX enterprise after Marcel's apparently unrepentant demise and the ongoing scandal to actual Catholics that results from the false and pretentious claims of the excommunicated schismatics of SSPX to be Catholic at all much less in a position of some imagined "Catholic" religious superiority over those actually Catholic (in communion with diocesan bishops and with the Holy See).

Of course, Missouri Synod Lutherans (far more respectable people than SSPX) are also still in disagreement with The Vatican and have some thriving seminaries but they also have the integrity not to make believe that they are Catholic nonetheless.

Hus, Wycliffe, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Marcel, Fellay....

87 posted on 06/27/2006 8:21:45 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: BlackElk

You go much much much further than what Cdl Hoyos has said about parishoners that go to SSPX chapels. Again, I do not care for Bp. Williamson and his cult of personality that has developed within the English speaking world of the SSPX, in fact I despise it.

That said, if I was in a diocese where those in authority were quite malformed, such as Cdl. Mahoney and his neighbor, Bp. Todd Brown, I would not even give a second thought about going to a SSPX or non sede "independent" chapel. "Authority" only goes so far when those in authority are questionable. I know you blackelk, cant quite seem to fathom that, but the current state of the church is quite ugly, and I will not put my soul, much less the souls of any children I may have, in grave danger by getting angry at heresy from the pulpit and sub Methodist liturgy.

Sorry to say BlackElk, its not quite a black and white situation, and the problem with so many "conservative" Catholics is they have authority be the end all be all, I am not one for primacy of concience, and ones concience has to be formed with church teachings, the dogmas and doctrines, and if there is an emergency situation, then some measures have to be taken. You may not like it, but the laity that go to SSPX chapels are not excommunicated(except in the Lincoln diocese, and that diocese has as a default reverent novus orders and is very generous with indults), nor has Rome taken any formal measure to excommunicate the laity that attend SSPX chapels, and I need not remind you of the ex communications that were overturned by then Ratzinger himself, even though the laity in that case went as far to have a SSPX priest flown in.

Lastly, you throw Lefebvre and Felly in the same category of Protestant "reformers". Let me ask you, did any of these "reformers" accept all 7 sacraments, and accept the dogmas and doctrines of the faith? At worst, you can say the SSPX is equivlent to the Eastren Orthodox, schismatic leadership, but not in heresy. LIke I said, my problem with "conservative" Catholics comes from the fact they make authority, even when those in authority appear to be malformed, an end all be all. God gave me a brain and the ability to reason, the ability to read the dogmas and doctrines of the church, read what the teachers had to say, read history such as teh Arian heresy, read about the vile mess that took place after Vatican II(The Dutch Bishops conference though their "authority" destroyed the church there), and damnit, I will use my brain.


98 posted on 06/27/2006 2:08:23 PM PDT by RFT1
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