Posted on 06/22/2006 12:39:38 PM PDT by sionnsar
Virginia. I'm too involved to just walk out but there are too many variables at play. I have never liked the Methodist model. The pastor has too much power. Our pastor does not abuse his power, he just sees no need to involve too many people in the decisions. And he is really too busy. If you ask the youth pastor about something, he says he has to talk to the head pastor. The head pastor blows him off so you get blown off by proxy. It's annoying.
The largest problem is that all our wives are in an uproar over the problems. Many people have spoken to him about theology and several have openly said they think he is unSaved. I don't think that is true. I just think he isn't comfortable with the mystery of God so he tends to overthink. Then he has the Hindus going to Heaven. The core group "opposing" him are almost all Emmaus-types(ie extremely grounded) and all have kids coming into youth activities. They have said they don't want the head pastor influencing their kids.
My biggest problem is that the pastor has absolutely no heart for the lost. He could care less if people go to Hell. If he believes in Hell at all which I doubt he does. So when we do mission work, it is all secular work.
We have unified and we have objected. But I sure am coveting that non-denom down the street. I wouldn't have to deal with liberal bishopettes or annual conferences or boards or any of that liberal pap that comes with being a mainstreamer.
You are in a conference (Virginia) that currently is headed by an apostate (Bishop Kammerer), and I don't envy you that. We had the same in Ohio for a while with Bish Craig. I doubt you'll get much relief for a few years until she's gone.
The only way to get relief is to quit giving your money and to have others do the same. (How large of a church is it?)
Our church polity is no more inclined to pastoral dictatorship than is any other model. That really is something that happens at the local level.
In fact, all of the committees are elected by the church.
1. The "Nominating Committee" is the most important. This year have 3 people you want to see on the nominating committee. Nominate them from the floor if you have to. Next year do another 3. You will then have the group in place to bring about change throughout the entire system.
2. Start working on the Pastor Parish Committee. You can nominate from the floor for that, too, until you get the nominating committee fixed. This is the committee that officially approves and disapproves of the pastor's behavior. It recommends a pastor stay or go.
3. The trustees "own" all the buildings and property.
4. All the other committees are significant. They deal with some aspect of what the church does: worship, education, missions, evangelism. Get workers on those to DO what you want to do, and then you can safely OVERRIDE and ignore any liberal pastor that gets sent your way.
This is the path to the people owning their local church.
I don't believe it's any different in the non-denom down the street. They have their in-groups, dictator pastors, bad doctrine, etc.
And, there is no "independent" church in the New Testament. They were linked. (See Acts 15.)
It's over 1000 members. I think we average about 700 a Sunday in 3 services.
I don't mind the pastor as much as I mind the uproar. If the "group" leaves, it will leave a big hole in the church. Everyone is waiting for everyone else to decide.
Stage a revolt before you depart.
700 is a good-sized church. Is your current pastor responsible for growing it that big, or is he just a "caretaker" sent to feed off someone else's faithfulness?
Im a Free Methodist - in my denomination we share power with laity - there is typically 50/50 representation
He is fixated on getting people to join the church. It's been really good for the numbers. He tries new things that have worked out. I have been working him to develop lay speakers in the church. We only had one who was willing to do it and he was apostate. I went to lay speaker training just to be available.
I don't care as much as the others. They are really worked up about it. But if the others leave, I am not really interested in staying. I joined the church because of them, not a given pastor. I've never cared for the pastors at the church until we got our new Associate last year. All of them have been wishy-washy liberals.
I have been pushing the idea that we need to work on changing the pastor spiritually rather than cutting and running. I think he is on the edge spiritually. One little push may put him where he needs to be. I think Emmaus would do it but he resists the idea with almost a phobia.
So if 3/4 of the members vote that Christ did not rise bodily from the dead, then it's a done deal?
I'm not arguing with the articles of your faith, just wondering whether these issues truly belong to the realm of the democratic process. Christ either did or did not rise from the dead.
A vote simply surveys the state of belief in your church at any one point in time. It does nothing to alter the objective realities of Christ's life, death and resurrection.
Ditto for other moral issues such as the sinfulness of sodomy, theft or murder.
Professor Gagnon has an excellent Web site at http://www.robgagnon.net.
Oh, no. It would be a good thing if I knew that 75% of the people wanted to reject the resurrection.
I'd know then that the candlestick had been removed, and that it was time to depart.
Far better than a rule that says "nothing can be rewritten that has been written." Apostates can really hide behind that.
"Jesus was into an institution called "The Church." "
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Whom do you believe that CHURCH is?
Is it one particular denomination, or is it the body of believers?
MY Church is not an institution. It is a body of people. Specifically those for whom Christ died (belivers).
I left and attend a non-denominational Christian church which teaches from the Word and worships in spirit and in truth!
And it is such a good feeling to be able to do that after hearing the liberal gospel preached for so many years.
"And it is such a good feeling to be able to do that after hearing the liberal gospel preached for so many years."
____________________________
Believe me, I understand. I think there is a point where it is fruitless to stay and fight, find other believers and fellowship with them. SCRIPTURE is always the best guide.
Your conference ought to act as the early church councils did. Take a position on an issue and hold to it, with anathemas. The problem is that Methodists love to straddle the fence. But the gays are not going to give up. Look at the ECUSA, which has tried the fudge tactic, and now sees that gays will rule but not submit.
They don't depart from the Scriptures: they just don't treat them as Holy. Inspired only in the same sense that John Donne's poetry is inspired. Particular human genius is celebrated, not God's grace.
I think the Church is that body that is descended from the body that Jesus started:
They went from Jerusalem, to Judea, to Samaria, to the uttermost parts of the earth.
But they WERE NOT just anyone who decided to hang out a shingle with the words "First Church of the Stuff We Think Is Right."
A real church is both the spiritual descendants of the Early Christians and they are descended through the lineage of ordination.
If they can't demonstrate their connection to the early Church, then where is their authority? After all Jesus said that the Church would be unconquerable and that "the gates of hell would not prevail" against it.
Jesus also said to His Apostles: "those who are not against us are for us." when they complained once about "unauthorized" folks who were preaching about Him.
Therefore, any group of "spiritual descendents" will not reject those with an already established, traceable connection who have not apostacized and had their candlestick removed.
They will demonstrate unity.
Just my humble 2c worth.
A body of people is an institution.
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