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To: Alamo-Girl; P-Marlowe; xzins; Alex Murphy
"Vafa's F-theory for example proposes a second temporal dimension which yields this time dimension of our perceptible four dimension block (x,y,z and t for time) as a plane and not a line."

You just restated what I said in a different way. The llth dimension, or 2nd time dimension, can be used for another being (outside of all time lines) to interact with mankind.

"On the Spiritual side, it also helps our understanding of pre-destination (and prophesy) v. free-will."

True. See Beyond the Cosmos for how multi-dimensional physics impacts Christian beliefs.

" also assert that the notion God is on any time is illogical per se."

I agree with that and never implied otherwise. The creator of the universe, by defintion, would have to be independent of it.

"Also I disagree with you that Genesis 1:2 establishes that God’s time is our time"

That's not exactly what I meant. God didn't make our time his time in Gen 1:2, he entered our time to interact with our world. That doesn't mean he was bound by our time, but it did signify a shift in the point of view that the author was writing from.

"I expect the Father’s revelation in Jesus Christ, in the Holy Spirit, in Scripture and in the Creation to agree "

I have been promoting this view all along, with the point that young-earth creationism prevents that belief from being fullfilled.

"God is Truth – and the Scriptures are Truth because He is the author."

True, but how often do people misunderstand the truth? Whole cults have been based on misunderstandings and bad interpretations (Mormonism, JW, etc). Because something is truth, doesn't mean it is going to be understood perfectly. Some people seem to think so, but that undermines the basic beliefs about man's sinful nature.

As for the theories such as Schroeder's, there is one fatal flaw. He forgets that regardless of what occured after the big bang instant, everything in the universe experienced the same time. It could very well by different relative to something outside the universe, but that is meaningless. More simply, everything in the universe was on the same "ride" so regardless of accleration changes, etc., a hypothetical person on the ride woudln't notice any time changes. This is just like an astronaut in orbit, who's clock actually slows down a miniscule fraction of a second, but he would never know unless he compares it to a precise clock on Earth.

161 posted on 06/01/2006 5:03:43 PM PDT by truthfinder9
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To: truthfinder9; xzins; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan; Buggman; 1000 silverlings; betty boop
Thanks for the book suggestion and for your reply! And thanks to all of you for your wonderful posts, insights, humor and pings!

You just restated what I said in a different way. The llth dimension, or 2nd time dimension, can be used for another being (outside of all time lines) to interact with mankind.

M-theory (eleven dimensions) does not have a second temporal dimension. F-theory does and is twelve dimensions: Evidence for F theory

Again, God is not “in” any geometric dimensionality – neither spatial nor temporal. He is timeless, spaceless. That is the entire point of “in the beginning”. For more on beginnings: Time before Time

And for a higher dimensionality approach with two temporal dimensions: five dimensional relativity, two times

And for Freeper comments related to subject of geometry vis-à-vis matter: Mysteries of Mass

That's not exactly what I meant. God didn't make our time his time in Gen 1:2, he entered our time to interact with our world. That doesn't mean he was bound by our time, but it did signify a shift in the point of view that the author was writing from.

To the contrary, I perceive God as the author of Scripture.

It is illogical (and unnecessary) that the Father would “enter” His creation before He created it. The Son, however, was in the beginning (John 1) – everything (both the spiritual and physical creation) was made by Him and for Him.

Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven. – Col 1:12-20

I’m glad to see that you are promoting the view I hold – that the Father’s revelation in Jesus Christ, in the Holy Spirit, in Scripture and in Creation agree.

But perhaps our approach is different?

Whenever there seems to be a conflict between Scripture and Creation, my presumption is that the failing is my own and not the indwelling Spirit, Scripture or Creation. (Romans 1:20-21, Psalms 19)

So I pray for understanding. The Holy Spirit is the only leader I trust (Romans 8, I Cor 2, John 15-17). I eschew all the doctrines and traditions of men whether Calvin, Arminius, the Pope, Billy Graham, Joseph Smith, etc. And He never fails me. As my eyes pass over the words, He brings the Scriptures alive within.

And concerning Creation, I also pray to know everything that He wants me to know but no more - then I research the science, math and so forth.

IMHO, it always comes down to our worldview on two points: (1) how we know what we know and how sure we are that we know it, and (2) our concept of “all that there is”.

On the first, I value above - and am more certain of - Spiritual knowledge than all other types of knowledge – whether sensory perception, logic or whatever. Freeper Investigation on the subject.

Thus there is never a conflict – the Spirit brings the Word alive through His indwelling. I accept His confirmation of them, including all the miracles, without hesitation or reservation.

On the second, I am a philosophical Realist (as compared to a Nominalist). To a realist, a tree falling in the forest makes a sound even if no one is around to hear it; universals such as threeness, redness, etc. exist.

For me, that which can be observed by microscope to telescope, matter in all its motions, etc. is but a subset of “all that there is”. Geometry exists and the mathematician comes along and discovers it

Likewise there are numerous non-spatial, non-temporal, non-corporeal existents – such as spirit, geometry, consciousness, qualia (likes, dislikes, pain, pleasure, etc.) – which are manifest “in” space/time geometry (regardless of dimensions) even when they also exist “beyond” all space/time geometry (in timelessness, spacelessness).

IOW, I am consciouslessly aware that I exist in timelessness even while yet in the flesh:

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Colossians 3:3

Therefore I am already assured that when my spirit weighs anchor from this body, I am already home in the Lord.

In sum, “all that there is” includes not only the spiritual and physical Creation but more importantly, God.

As for the theories such as Schroeder's, there is one fatal flaw. He forgets that regardless of what occured after the big bang instant, everything in the universe experienced the same time. It could very well by different relative to something outside the universe, but that is meaningless. More simply, everything in the universe was on the same "ride" so regardless of accleration changes, etc., a hypothetical person on the ride woudln't notice any time changes. This is just like an astronaut in orbit, who's clock actually slows down a miniscule fraction of a second, but he would never know unless he compares it to a precise clock on Earth.

Again, you are accepting only a three spatial dimension universe evolving over time (time as a line). Relativity (and time as a plane) - does not apply to that worldview – it is based on a space/time continuum.
189 posted on 06/01/2006 10:42:35 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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