>>So ... do you think that the so-called Gospel of Judas ... should have a place among the scriptures ?
I don’t know, but it makes interesting reading and it refutes the over 40 authors who all agree thing.
>>Never mind that it was written 200 years after the time of Christ ...
>>which kind of blows any possibility that it could have been written by Judas.
No, It was discovered in 200 AD after a campaign to have it destroyed was over, we have proof of the Campaign, we have a book preserved by burial with “Saints” in a tomb.
>>The early church had dismissed the Gospel of Judas (and other similarly spurious
>>writings) ... before Constantine ever came on the scene.
Um who decided these were spurious writings? Is this why the apostles were fighting apostasy while they were alive?
>>I don't think that I've vilified anyone ...
Ok, Then sorry bout that, but on this very thread, I’ve had direct challenges to my right to call myself a Christian.
>>I believe I simply pointed out that the orthodox teaching of the Church is that
>>The Father and the Son are distinct Persons, but are both the One Eternal God,
>>along with the Holy Spirit.
The Nicene Creed (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11049a.htm ) disagrees with you.
The following is a literal translation of the Greek text of the Constantinopolitan form, the brackets indicating the words altered or added in the Western liturgical form in present use:
We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."
>>>>Is it possible that “Proving” someone’s faith is wrong is a pointless exercise? I think it is.
>>Don't you desire to have true faith ?
I have True Faith.
>>Don't you wish to believe those things which God desires that you believe ?
Yes I do, And I do Believe what he Desires me to believe.
>>>>BTW “It is possible” is a really bad debating tactic as it throws the doors open a
>>>>little too widely hence my mostly humorous response.
>>This type of argument is quite effective ... when there is a lack of tangible evidence.
>>Ask any lawyer.
If any of the lawyers who work for me used this in court, I’d fire them on the spot.
>>Lack of evidence ... should lead one to consider these types of questions.
No it leads me to consider the source… Done.
>>If there was any corroboration by anyone ... for what Joseph Smith said that he
>>read from the golden plates ... these questions wouldn't exist.
Read, Ponder, Pray for knowledge, get corroboration. If I told you to go to some library, you’d go, if I told you to go to a web site, you’d go, but you won’t goto God and you won’t accept the word of those who have, Sad really.
>>Unfortunately ... all we have is his single testimony.
Nope, I refuted that already too.
So how do I testify of Christ without the spirit.
So ... do you think that the so-called Gospel of Judas ... should have a place among the scriptures ?
I don’t know, but it makes interesting reading and it refutes the over 40 authors who all agree thing.
Fortunately it doesn't refute a thing ... because it was never a part of the scriptures.
It was just another writing in the collection of writings which were generated during the days of the early church. Some of these writings were inspired by God ... and some of them weren't.
God, working through the early church, separated the wheat from the chaff.
The early church had dismissed the Gospel of Judas (and other similarly spurious writings) ... before Constantine ever came on the scene.
Um who decided these were spurious writings?
God did ... working through the church.
Is it your opinion that all of the writings which appeared during the days of the early church ... should have been declared scripture ?
Do you think that all of the Old Testament Jewish writings ... were compiled into the Old Testament canon ?
Do you believe that the LDS should give as much credence to the Gospel of Judas ... as you give to your already declared scriptures ?
Is this why the apostles were fighting apostasy while they were alive?
The church has fought apostacy and heresy ... for as long as it has existed.
Many have come, ... pretending to be men of God, ... for their own evil purposes ...Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
I believe I simply pointed out that the orthodox teaching of the Church is that the Father and the Son are distinct Persons, but are both the One Eternal God, along with the Holy Spirit.
The Nicene Creed (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11049a.htm ) disagrees with you.
Why is it that you believe that the Nicean Creed disagrees with me ?
Read, Ponder, Pray for knowledge, get corroboration. If I told you to go to some library, you’d go, if I told you to go to a web site, you’d go, but you won’t goto God and you won’t accept the word of those who have, Sad really.
I have been going to God in prayer for some 40 years now ... and He has yet to even hint to me ... that Book of Mormon is from Him.
Unfortunately ... all we have is his single testimony.
Nope, I refuted that already too.
Not quite ... remember ... not another soul on earth ever read those plates. You all have only Joseph's word as to what they said.
So how do I testify of Christ without the spirit.
Christians don't forego the testimony of the Spirit.Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:The Spirit simply hasn't led us to embrace the Book of Mormon.
The Nicene Creed disagrees with you.
I don't know why you think the Nicene Creed disagrees with the proposition that the Father and Son (and the Holy Spirit) are distinct persons, but what Quester said is perfectly correct. If you're trying to say that the Nicene Creed disagrees with orthodox Trinitarianism, then you aren't understanding the creed the way Trinitarians do; if you're trying to say that orthodox Trinitarianism doesn't teach what Quester said it does, you're simply mistaken.
Another ancient (4th Century) creed, the Athanasian, puts it perhaps more clearly:
And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal ... So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords.