>>>>Are you trying to Shake my faith? (Not even Close).
>>>> If you were trying to shake anyone’s faith, what a despicable thing to attempt.
>>Okay, so if we try to enlighten someone that the tulips in their backyard are not
>>praiseworthy as gods, or that cows are not sacred because they were
>>great-grandfather Joe, then "shaking" such a faith is "despicable," eh?
Attempting to shake anyone’s faith is despicable, whether you believe their religion or not.
BTW The Hindu would tell you there is a god in the tulip, just as there is a god in you, or your ball point pen. They would be serious, and you would look like a buffoon for telling them they did not know what they were talking about. Then there’s the cows…
>>Better tell certain folks where white shirts & ties to stop going door to door.
>>Might shake someone's faith their visiting (to hear the gospel was lost, in
>>need of restoration).
As a former missionary for the Church (where I taught Buddhists, and Hindus) I never denigrated anyone’s religion on purpose.
>>You can't even be consistent w/the tenets of what you say you believe.
Pulezze! The stated reason for the questions, and the questions were not compatible.
I want to help you.. When will you agree that you are wrong? When did you stop beating your wife? Is it you or your interpretation that is wrong? Why are you resisting the truth? Why can’t you be consistent? /Sarcasm
There were no qualifiers on this statement originally. And, in addition, "denigration" is in the mind of the beholder. For example, as you read through this below, imagine that the descriptions of Joseph's first visions were being applied to the LDS Church:
all creeds an abomination in his sight [not denigration, eh?...my, that won't shake the faith of the faithful, eh?]
professors were all corrupt [who even on the most flaming of any thread labels LDS "all corrupt" NONE!!!]
powerless godliness
did not adorn their profession by a holy walk [is this, too, a JoeSmith compliment from his memory as a 15-year-old?] [1831-1832 vision account]
Or maybe these uplifting words (1839 vision account] of the prophet are the non-denigrating references you were thinking of: "it was seen that the seemingly good feelings of botht he Priests and the Converts were more pretended than real, for a scene of great confusion and bad feelings ensued. Priest contending against priest, and convert against convert so that all their good feelings one for another (if they ever had any)..."
Again, deal with the obvious. Any missionary visit is going to try to encompass the First Vision, right? Well, then, what is the content of the First Vision as espoused by J. Smith?
To bring that out, allow me to frame it as a scripted convo I'm having with Missionary Brown:
Missionary Brown: "Joseph Smith received a vision from the Lord that brought us the restored gospel."
Me: "What was the content of that first vision, and more importantly, what did Joseph already believe prior to having received this first vision? I happen to have several accounts of this vision with me. Would you mind reading the sections I've underlined?"
Missionary Brown: "Sure. 'All their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: 'they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.''"
Me: "I have an LDS friend who says nobody should denigrate another's faith--whether they believe in it or not. Don't you think that the above comment denigrates creeds and Christian leaders and members alike?--I mean you can't get much worse than they they're an "abomination in his sight" and "that their professors were ALL corrupt" and having powerless godliness."
Missionary Brown: "Well, you have to understand that Joseph wasn't speaking of his own experience or vantage point. He was merely a mouthpiece of God--kind of like a play-by-play commentator whose telling things the way they were at that point in American history."
Me: "What if I was to tell you that in two of Joseph's many versions of the 'First Vision,' he explained that this was his own understanding as a 15-year-old kid--that this understanding permeated his belief system before he even encountered any other-worldly being?"
Missionary Brown: "I'm from Missouri. So you've got to show me."
Me: "Well, let's first go to the 1831-1832 vision, as published by BYU & other LDS sources. Let's look at Joseph's pre-vision worldview that he held between the ages of 12 & 15, and please note the words I underlined...especially that he was a grandiouse denominational philospher already between the ages of 12 & 15:
At about the age of twelve years my mind become seriously imprest with regard to the all importent concerns for the wellfare of my immortal Soul which led me to searching the scriptures believeing as I was taught, that they contained the word of God thus applying myself to them and my intimate acquaintance with those of different denominations led me to marvel excedingly for I discovered that instead of adorning their profession by a holy walk and Godly conversation agreeable to what I found contained in that sacred depository this was a grief to my Soul. Thus from the age of twelve years to fifteen I pondered many things in my heart concerning the sittuation of the world of mankind the contentions and divi[si]ons the wicke[d]ness and abominations and the darkness which pervaded the of the minds of mankind My mind become excedingly distressed for I become convicted of my sins and by searching the scriptures I found that mand did not come unto the Lord but that they had apostatised from the true and liveing faith and there was no society or denomination that built upon the gospel of Jesus Christ as recorded in the new testament and I felt to mourn for my own sins and for the sins of the world."
Missionary Brown: "So?"
Me: "Well look! Joseph, between the ages of 12 & 15, prior to any vision [he goes on & THEN describes the vision] already had concluded that (a) mankind has "apostatized" from the faith; (b) There was "no society or denomination that built upon the gospel"; (c) the "world of mankind" consisted of "abominations" and (d) they "didn't adorn their profession of a holy walk"
Missionary Brown: "So, God was looking for someone who saw the world through His eyes."
Me: "What this shows is that Jo. Smith put his own worldviews in a divine entity's mouth. "abominations" of mankind generally became "abominations" of the church; "apostatize" became the foundational doctrine of the great apostasy; the gospelless societies & denominations meant a new church to come; and "didn't adorn their profession of a holy walk" became "that those professors were all corrupt; that: 'they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.''"
Missionary Brown: "Well, that's your opinion."
Me: "Well, the 1839 version, as recorded by James Mulholland, shows the same thing. In that version, at one point, again describing his 15th year, he says of folks in other denominations: "it was seen that the seemingly good feelings of both the Priests and the Converts were more pretended than real" [see the linkage to the lack of godliness comment?]. Again, it led to a 15 yo asking, "In the midst of this war of words, and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself, what is to be done? Who of all these parties are right? Or are they all wrong together?"
Me: "See, the pre-visited Joseph Smith already was thinking "they [were] all wrong together"...and wonder of wonder, the "personage" happened to confirm that exact worldview by telling him that, indeed, they were all wrong, and that he should join none of them.
Me: "My. How perceptive of this backwoods 12 to 15 yo to have his inner thoughts confirmed by this God in a direct visitation."