Posted on 04/27/2006 3:03:34 PM PDT by restornu
The Book of Mormon is often dismissed as gibberish by those who have never taken the trouble to read it. In fact, its very existence poses a serious puzzle if it is not what it claims to be - an ancient record. Below is the Book of Mormon Challenge, an assignment that Professor Hugh Nibley at BYU sometimes gave to students in a required class on the Book of Mormon. The following text is taken from the Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Vol.8, Ch.11, Pg.221 - Pg.222:
Since Joseph Smith was younger than most of you and not nearly so experienced or well-educated as any of you at the time he copyrighted the Book of Mormon, it should not be too much to ask you to hand in by the end of the semester (which will give you more time than he had) a paper of, say, five to six hundred pages in length. Call it a sacred book if you will, and give it the form of a history. Tell of a community of wandering Jews in ancient times; have all sorts of characters in your story, and involve them in all sorts of public and private vicissitudes; give them names--hundreds of them--pretending that they are real Hebrew and Egyptian names of circa 600 b.c.; be lavish with cultural and technical details--manners and customs, arts and industries, political and religious institutions, rites, and traditions, include long and complicated military and economic histories; have your narrative cover a thousand years without any large gaps; keep a number of interrelated local histories going at once; feel free to introduce religious controversy and philosophical discussion, but always in a plausible setting; observe the appropriate literary conventions and explain the derivation and transmission of your varied historical materials.
Above all, do not ever contradict yourself! For now we come to the really hard part of this little assignment. You and I know that you are making this all up--we have our little joke--but just the same you are going to be required to have your paper published when you finish it, not as fiction or romance, but as a true history! After you have handed it in you may make no changes in it (in this class we always use the first edition of the Book of Mormon); what is more, you are to invite any and all scholars to read and criticize your work freely, explaining to them that it is a sacred book on a par with the Bible. If they seem over-skeptical, you might tell them that you translated the book from original records by the aid of the Urim and Thummim--they will love that! Further to allay their misgivings, you might tell them that the original manuscript was on golden plates, and that you got the plates from an angel. Now go to work and good luck!
To date no student has carried out this assignment, which, of course, was not meant seriously. But why not? If anybody could write the Book of Mormon, as we have been so often assured, it is high time that somebody, some devoted and learned minister of the gospel, let us say, performed the invaluable public service of showing the world that it can be done." - Hugh Nibley
Structure and Complexity of the Book of Mormon First Nephi gives us first a clear and vivid look at the world of Lehi, a citizen of Jerusalem but much at home in the general world of the New East of 600 B.C. Then it takes us to the desert, where Lehi and his family wander for eight years, doing all the things that wandering families in the desert should do. The manner of their crossing the ocean is described, as is the first settlement and hard pioneer life in the New World dealt with.... The book of Mosiah describes a coronation rite in all its details and presents extensive religious and political histories mixed in with a complicated background of exploration and colonization. The book of Alma is marked by long eschatological discourses and a remarkably full and circumstantial military history. The main theme of the book of Helaman is the undermining of society by moral decay and criminal conspiracy; the powerful essay on crime is carried into the next book, where the ultimate dissolution of the Nephite government is described.
Then comes the account of the great storm and earthquakes, in which the writer, ignoring a splendid opportunity for exaggeration, has as accurately depicted the typical behavior of the elements on such occasions as if he were copying out of a modern textbook on seismology.... [Soon] after the catastrophe, Jesus Christ appeared to the most pious sectaries who had gathered at the temple.
...Can anyone now imagine the terrifying prospect of confronting the Christian world of 1830 with the very words of Christ? ...
But the boldness of the thing is matched by the directness and nobility with which the preaching of the Savior and the organization of the church are described. After this comes a happy history and then the usual signs of decline and demoralization. The death-struggle of the Nephite civilization is described with due attention to all the complex factors that make up an exceedingly complicated but perfectly consistent picture of decline and fall. Only one who attempts to make a full outline of Book of Mormon history can begin to appreciate its immense complexity; and never once does the author get lost (as the student repeatedly does, picking his way out of one maze after another only with the greatest effort), and never once does he contradict himself. We should be glad to learn of any other like performance in the history of literature. - Hugh Nibley, Collected Works Vol. 8
The four types of biblical experts There are four kinds of biblical experts: At the very top are the professionals who have been doing biblical research all their adult lives. They are usually professors in leading universities in various fields that are related to the Bible such as archaeologists, historians, paleographers, professors of the Bible, and professors of Near Eastern languages and literature.
These people are the most credible of all biblical experts and do not let religious views get in the way of the truth. This is why a lot of them consider themselves to be nonbelievers in the modern Christian and Jewish faiths. Their reputation and standing in the academic community is very important to them. This causes them to be cautious and not rashly declare statements upon any subject without presenting verifiable proof for their claims. It is to them that encyclopedias, journals and universities go to for information. Their community is very small, but extremely influential in the secular world. One distinctive feature of this group is the difficulty outsiders face when reading their writings which causes them to be a fairly closed society.
The second group of biblical experts are those who have legitimate degrees and may have initially been in the first group but were spurned by the first group for being unreliable because they disregard demonstrable proof simply because their religious convictions teach otherwise. For them, their religion's teaching overrides real biblical research. Very few of them can be considered Fundamentalists.
The third group of biblical experts are the "biblical experts." These people disregard the works and conclusions of the first group, and view the second group as their mentors. Nearly all anti-Mormons who produce anti-Mormon paraphernalia fall into this group. Their views are purely theological and display ignorance of legitimate biblical studies. Their arguments are non-rational and are frequently sensational hype and empty rhetoric. These people are very vocal and constantly parade their "expertise" upon the unknowing masses by giving seminars in various churches and religious schools. Nearly all of them are Fundamentalists.
The fourth group of "biblical experts" are those who have never read the Bible completely and do not even know the history and contents of the Bible. They are completely reliant upon materials produced by the third group and may have five verses in the Bible memorized to quote at people they encounter (in nearly every instance John 3:16 and John 14:6 are included in these five verses) to give the impression they are experts in the Bible. They usually need the Table of Contents to find various biblical books and are extremely vocal in their condemnation of Mormonism. They personify the wise adage:
The less knowledge a man has, the more vocal he is about his expertise.
They read an anti-Mormon book and suddenly they're experts on Mormonism:
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
The remainder of Christians are those who believe in the Bible but never read it. The Bible is a very complex book for most Christians and seems to possess a power that intimidates them. This is why a normal Christian is impressed whenever he or she encounters an individual who can quote scripture. It is this ignorance of the Bible that causes some to proclaim themselves "biblical experts."
I am not aware of anyone in the first group of biblical experts who are anti-Mormon. If anything, real biblical scholars who know Mormon theology have a profound sense of admiration for it and are usually astonished that so many facets of Mormonism reflect authentic biblical teachings.
They are frequently puzzled at how Joseph Smith could find out the real biblical teaching since modern Judaism and Christianity abandoned them thousands of years ago. Uniquely Mormon doctrines such as the anthropomorphic nature of God, the divine nature and deification potential of man, the plurality of deities, the divine sanction of polygamy, the fallacy of sola scriptura, the superiority of the charismatic leaders over the ecclesiastical leaders and their importance, the inconsequence of Original Sin because of the Atonement of Christ, the importance of contemporary revelation, and so forth are all original Jewish and Christian thought before they were abandoned mainly due to Greek philosophical influence.
Mormonism to these scholars is the only faith that preserves the characteristics of the early chosen people. This doesnt mean these scholars believe Mormonism is the true religion, since their studies are on an intellectual level instead of a spiritual one.
On the other hand, the leaders of the anti-Mormon movement are nearly all in the third category with a couple in the second. Real biblical experts (who arent Mormon) and are in the first category normally refer to the biblical experts in the third group as the know-nothings or the Fundamentalist know-nothings. These terms arent completely derogatory, but are accurate descriptions of the knowledge of the biblical experts in the third group. Ed Watson - Mormonism: Faith of the 21st Century
When I was active LDS, all published or broadcast General Conference talks were considered "scripture." Those can be found in the Church Magazines.
In the earlier days the talks of the Prophets were recorded in the Journal of Discources. Now we see that the Church is repudiating them as "unofficial."
There are actually only three official Mormon publications that no Mormon will refute. The D&C, Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price. They can be purchased in one book called the triple combination.
The P of GP has had new light shed on it in recent years. This is the supposed Joseph Smith translation of Egyptian papyri...the Book of Abraham etc. It appears that the papyri was just a simple funerary piece that was included in a sarcophagus w/ a mummy.
Thank you for this more complete quote and verifying what I said, that I was giving the Church the benefit of the doubt about this teaching.
If you read my post, I said I didn't know what the Church teaches about God having a God. You just proved my point since I wasn't born before Gordon B. Hinkley either.
I din't say I don't like farms or fairs. I simply said they weren't "oficially" condoned as speaking for the Church...period.
You discount unofficial Church publications like the Journal of Discourses, yet you uphold the words of people who make a living discounting "anti-mormons." It's just curious.
Num. 22:
18 And Balaam answered and said unto the servants of Balak, If Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold, I cannot go beyond the word of the LORD my God, to do less or more.
Joseph was given knowledge all through his mission, much we have details on, sadly there was *more details about the about the temple he was teaching that are left undone before he was murdered!
*These things surface when you read certain histories it is mention in passing!
I read one time in an unoffical book mention in passing that Joseph was preparing a couple for Marriage in the Temple and he was going to teach more during the next council....
The book was about formation of planets I forget can't find my copy!
Extemporaneous vs Revealtion
Thing that have not been proof read and given the ok is just records of a meeting!
Not every word uttered is a revelations so which are which?
No one knows for sure?
No, I do not like it. This kind of "trap them before they know any better," tactic is abusive in my opinion.
Have you read the statistics about how many converts actually stay active in the Church after this "meat doctrine" is introduced.
This is from the Salt Lake Tribune http://www.sltrib.com July 26, 2005
Excerpt: The problem originates in the faith's tradition of rapid conversion of investigators to the church according to David Stewart, a church member and researcher who has studied the problem of member retention in the church.
Stewart, who has studied the question for over 14 years, said that such quick conversions are a "recipe for inactivity."
"I'm encouraged that there is a little bit of awareness of the problem," he said.
The American Religious Identification Survey of 2001 the Graduate Center of City University of New York said in a report that the same number of people had left the Mormon church in the United States as had joined it.
That was not from a church source nor do I know if what was quoted their is accurate in the origianl paper it was taken from a link off the net!
The point was there were NO I repeat NO details given how this is so?
Many of our strange things to non members we can backup with scripture and or circumstance existing!
This was a statement long ago and no one has the details unitl something tell us how and why it is just speculation!
He said he does not even know if the LDS Chgurch teaches that doctrine. If he was merely trying to "de-emphasize" it, then he is a liar. If he really doesn't know if the LDS Church teaches that, then you, by claiming it is part of LDS teaching, are either misguided or someone has been lying to you.
Can you state with certainty that the LDS Church teaches that God was once a man and that you may someday become equal to Him? Do you have any official sources which proclaim this doctrine today?
I've read a number of Hinckley's interviews online and there are quite alot of "I don't know's". How odd for the "LEADER" not to know what his own church teaches.
And the answer is...
"I don't know".
Getting back to the topic of plural gods:
"- In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it. (April 1844, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 349; History of the Church 6:308)"
Is this "official"?
I had such a strong witness I could not deny it!
At the time I had no knowledge about Joseph Smith testimony and his feeling that he could not deny it just to get along with clergy!
It came solely from the Book of Mormon I had not even read the book but the Holy Spirit was so sweet and brought such great JOY I just needed to know more and I took to it like a Duck Takes to Water!
For the first time in my life I had truth!
Moroni 10
3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.
7 And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.
When I first heard about he Godhead I knew it was true no way could the Heavenly Father, the Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost be composed in one blob!
1- It is a fact the Jesus has a resurrected Body of Flesh and Bone!
2- It is also true that as written in JOHN 5 ~ JESUS CAN DO NOTHING BUT WHAT HE SEES HIS FATHER DO!
3- It is the fact the Holy Ghost is a Spirit!
4- It is a fact that Lucifer/Satan never kept his 1st estate so he did not receive a body of Flesh and Blood as the rest of us Children did!
5- Gen 1:26-27
26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our LIKENESS: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in HIS OWN image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
6- Spirits are formless they are NOT Created nor Made into an image!
7- So if one is creating a image it is a Body image of a Body!
Yea!
Job 38:
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
(supposedly) by Joseph Smith
This 'official history' of the early LDS Church is edited from the Utah church's viewpoint. Although the church hasnt officially denounced this history as being written by someone other than Joseph Smith, the fact is that much of it was not written by him and most of it was put together after he was dead. The early church historians did many creative things with this history including adding prophecies attributable to Joseph Smith that had been fulfilled after his death. (Hmmmm... seems like the early Christians did the same thing). The early historians also censored much of the material to make it more faith promoting.
This history would still be very disturbing (although few active members have bothered to read it) in the eyes of most Mormons who are only familiar with the typical Sunday School sanitized version of the churchs supposed spotless history. This 7 volume set read in conjunction with the Quinn & Newell books will give you a fairly accurate look at the beginnings of Mormonism--far more so then if you look to your seminary teacher, gospel doctrine class or Ensign for a true glimpse of Mormon history.
This is an excerpt from a "anti-Mormon" site http://www.lds-mormon.com/history.shtml
I'm still searching for an "official" Church issued statement that this book is accurate. Logophile Do you know?
And the answer is...
"I don't know".
***
Witnessing more from the clueless sour grapes....
....as to the progress that is continuing being made each day in the kingdom of Jesus Christ!!
Quinn a known bitter homosexual and liar!
Expelled scholar (QUINN) of Mormon history can't find work Monday, April 10, 2006
BTW
In the meantime, Mr. Quinn sleeps on a futon in his mother's condominium and says he can't afford health insurance, car repairs or Internet access. His library of books on Mormon and American social history lies boxed up in her garage and closets
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/1622778/posts?page=237#237
An ungodly man diggeth up evil: and in his lips there is as a burning fire. - Prov.16: 27
Yep...you surely cannot believe the word of those "bitter, homosexuals!"
Interesting what makes it into doctrine and what doesn't. It seems sort of loosey goosey as it can be changed at any given moment. (revelation) Certainly would keep a Mormon on his toes! :)
How does someone in the Morman faith keep it all straight and current as to what is doctrine and what is currently being taught?
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