"Since Latin can't be found in the Novus Ordo liturgy, that's hardly a concession. Latin is inextricably tied to the Missal of 1962, and cannot be removed from that liturgy. Don't take my word for it, check the Council of Trent." As I've said MANY times in this thread, the way to handle this is to have one weekend service in the parish in Latin, if the congregation wants it.
"Pope John Paul II used the "sense of the sacred" phrase; so you disagree with him, eh?"
Yes. There is nothing whatsoever "special" about Latin. It's just one more language used by man. JPII felt that heightened "sense of the sacred" because he was a "cradle Catholic" who grew up with the Latin Mass.
"It is laughable to think the Church kept Latin as the universal language of the liturgy and its official language to somehow "retard/prevent the breakup of the Holy Roman Empire." Is that a personal conjecture or wild guess?
Conjecture, based on a knowledge of the history at the time. The Church desperately wanted to prevent the breakup of the "Holy Roman Empire" (and they were probably right to want to do so). I'm sure the hierarchy felt that REQUIRING Latin would help to this end.
"Latin was/is used because of its unchanging nature (its a dead language so there are not updates in the latest Webster's), its interface with literally millions upon millions of people who spoke different languages around the globe, and its attributes of common usage.
Which "advantages" no longer exist today. The language with those advantages today is English--spoken by more people as a "second language" than speak it as a "first language".
"During this 1,500 years it was not the primary vernacular anywhere."
Correct. And this was probably ONE of the driving forces of the Reformation.
"It was unifying in that a Catholic could walk into any church in any part of the world and hear, see, and understand what was being done during the Sacrifice of the Mass.
REALLY. People who couldn't understand Latin, but (for instance) could speak English go to a service in a Spanish-speaking area, and somehow magically now understand the service in a language THEY DON'T SPEAK with the "translation sidebar" now in a second langauage they don't understand. Go peddle that malarkey elsewhere.
"Again, this isn't about "understanding a language" it is about form, substance, and the Mass.
See above about the "Spanish-Latin" missal and the English-speaking tourist to see just how ridiculous that comment is.
"Of course, if you have only experienced the Novus Ordo during the last decade or so, perhaps you can't relate..."
THANK YOU for making my point so well. MOST of the world no longer HAS that experience, so the so-called "advantages" of Latin no longer exist. And that INCLUDES today's "cradle Catholics".
"But God does care about the souls that are brought to Him. If the Mass of Ages is a proven and favorable path to Him, what man should block its way?"
And precisely how do you know that the Latin mass is "a proven and favorable path to him" as compared to the Novus Ordo. It seems that the Pope and the Council of Vatican II felt that a more favorable approach existed, hence the increased use of the vernacular. How many conversions happened in the forty years prior to Vatican II compared to the forty years after. It seems to me that the numbers are UP "post VCII" rather than down.
Thanks for the exchange. Most of the attendees at the TLM I attend were born AFTER Vatican II. Therefore it ain't nostalgia. Go figure. Try a TLM sometime, I'm sure there is one in your area.
It seems to me that the numbers are UP "post VCII" rather than down.
Here is a graph featuring Great Britain's stats...
The fact is that vocations are dramatically down in almost every area of the world, 'cept in the continent of Africa. Mass attendance has plummeted everywhere as has the belief in the Real Presence, according to numerous surveys. Add to this situation parish church closings, a monumental financial crisis due to the priest sexual abuse crisis plus mismanagement, and guess what: things are not well in the Church today.