[HarleyD]

Now back to the (non-Apostolic) Church fathers... Do you have any? I'm not looking for a "gotcha" moment here, I've just come across several sources that state that strict predestination and the denial of free will was not known or believed in the post Apostolic Church till Calvin - Augustine being the possible one exception.

Hi PM... Trying to move on by saying, "Augustine was the exception now try to find me ONE Church Father who agree with your position", is a tad bit disingenuous don't you think? I do enjoy how the Catholics revere Augustine and then distances themselves from his statements by 1) denying he really said anything, 2) saying that he really didn't mean what he said, or 3) saying the most premier early church father spoke as a lone wolf. I could understand people saying, "Sure, Augustine said so-n-so but he was wrong." I find it unbelievable that people would brush him aside as insignificant as though he doesn't count.

There are a number of scholars far better than you or I who have traced the Reformed belief back to Augustine. If you were to simply, and objectively, read Augustine apart from the Church telling you how to interpret him, you can clearly see strong shades of Reformed theology in his writings. I know. Calvin didn't convinced me. It was Augustine's writings that convinced me. That's not to say I agree with everything in his writings. It is to say that his basic premises are correct.

You do a disservice to yourself not to admit that a good portion of Augustine's writings did sow the seeds for the Reformation.

[PetroniusMaximus]

hi PM... Trying to move o­n by saying, "Augustine was the exception now try to find me o­nE Church Father who agree with your position", is a tad bit disingenuous don't you think?

HarleyD, in all fairness, I did start my remarks to Gamecock with that caveat (post #14)..

"Not that it's a make or break, but... What Church fathers do you draw o­n (besides Augustine) to make the case that something like Calvinism was believed historically by the Church?
I ask, because it is my understanding that the Church always believed in free will and the sovereignty of God."

" There are a number of scholars far better than you or I who have traced the Reformed belief back to Augustine."

That's exactly what I'm getting at! What is the path back to Augustine? What other (non-apostolic, pre-reformation - [ wink to Gamecock ] ) Church fathers are drawn o­n to confirm that Augustine was not a "lone wolf" o­n this issue?