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To: tenn2005; verga; NYer
Why is it so important to prove that the Mother of Jesus is not a virgin? What do you stand to profit if St. Mary had more children? Would you or your neighbor set off to prove that you're a direct descendant of Jesus Christ or at least of His half-brother?

Not every tradition a Christian believes is bound in the pages of the Book that has been sustained by Catholic clergy. Does the Bible say that Jesus remained un-married and celibate, but most traditional Christians hold fast to his being single, unmarried, and a Virgin?

Because of the many doubts held by non-Catholic Christians concerning well documented historical Christian tradition, many have fallen prey to the obvious lies of novel writers who sometimes have a very malicious agenda against ALL Christianity.

Why would The Holy Trinity have had it the way it is--The Blessed and Eternal Virgin Mary? Could it be because of all those who WOULD HAVE LAID CLAIM TO BEING A DESCENDANT OF THE PROPHET? Islam has a very huge problem because of exactly this! And how much Islamic blood has been shed by Muslim brothers for this very same claim of descendency?!?!

Jesus Christ spares us of brothers and sisters and would be descendants. We would have been as confused about loyalties and cursed with royal ambitions that have plagued not only Israelites and their nobility but ALL mankind's human history!

Thank God in Heaven that He gave us the Blessed Virgin Mary!!!!!!!
168 posted on 03/20/2006 8:41:09 AM PST by SaltyJoe (A mother's sorrowful heart and personal sacrifice redeems her lost child's soul.)
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To: SaltyJoe
Does the Bible say that Jesus remained unmarried and celibate, but most traditional Christians hold fast to his being single, unmarried, and a Virgin?

Mary married Joseph. The Bible says so. No where does it state that Jesus was ever married and if He had been, one would certainly expect Him to have consummated the marriage. Otherwise, what would be the point of getting married in the first place? Since He wasn't married He certainly should have remained celibate.

You don't want chapter and verse about Mary and Joseph "coming together," do you?

ANYWAY, at least we can agree that the Crusades were most likely necessary and not undertaken purely on a holy whim.

177 posted on 03/20/2006 9:54:48 AM PST by madison10
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To: SaltyJoe
"Why is it so important to prove that the Mother of Jesus is not a virgin? What do you stand to profit if St. Mary had more children?"

All protestants believe that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born. They just follow a strict interpretation of Scripture to follow that she had kids after Jesus was born.

Your second question is backwards. What do you gain by having Mary a perpetual virgin? I say, what is gained is a couple of other doctrines that aren't Scriptual.

Ex.1

"From the Church he learns the example of holiness and recognizes its model and source in the all-holy Virgin Mary..." Pg. 490, #2030

The Bible affirms repeatedly that God is our only model of holiness:

"Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee..." Revelation 15:4

"Exalt ye the LORD our God, and worship at his footstool; for he is holy." Psalm 99:5

"Let them praise thy great and terrible name; for it is holy." Psalm 99:3

Never do we read in Scripture about Mary being holy, much less the source or model of holiness:

"Exalt the LORD our God, and worship at his holy hill; for the LORD our God is holy." Psalm 99:9

"And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory." Isaiah 6:3

The words "holy" or "holiness" are used over 600 times in the Bible. Not once does either word refer to Mary.

Ex. 2)

"Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." Pg. 252, #969

"...if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" 1 John 2:1

The Bible disagrees with Catholicism by declaring that Jesus, not Mary, is the only supernatural Helper:

"Behold, God is mine helper..." Psalm 54:4

"So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me." Hebrews 13:6

"Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all." Psalm 34:19

Never in the Word of God is Mary mentioned as being a supernatural helper.

Ex. 3)

"Taken up to heaven she (Mary) did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation..." Pg. 252, #969

"Being obedient she (Mary) became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race." Pg. 125, #494


"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12

Jesus Himself declared that He is the ONLY way to heaven:

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

"I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved... " John 10:9

" Not every tradition a Christian believes is bound in the pages of the Book that has been sustained by Catholic clergy.

True. But if it directly contradicts Scripture, you had best follow scripture over the traditions of men.

Finally, Protostants aren't trying to establish some kind of human lineage to Jesus. That would serve no purpose for salvation.

"For by Grace are you saved through faith, it is not of yourself (lineage), it is a gift of God, not of works (marry into lineage), lest any man should boast."Eph. 2:8,9

This is somewhat off of the topic of the Crusades, and I don't post this to get into a long drawn out debate over tradition and Scripture. Rather, I post this to show you that your assumptions about Protostants and Marys virginity are mistaken.

Sincerely
182 posted on 03/20/2006 11:06:12 AM PST by ScubieNuc
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To: SaltyJoe

This all sounds good but it is not what Matt 13:55 says.
I find it interesting that Catholic doctrine keeps tripping over scripture.


184 posted on 03/20/2006 11:10:00 AM PST by tenn2005 (Birth is merely an event; it is the path walked that becomes one's life.)
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To: SaltyJoe

>Why is it so important to prove that the Mother of Jesus >is not a virgin?

Maybe you mis-read my post.

I do beleeive that Mary remained ever virgin.
I agree with the perpetual virginity.


202 posted on 03/20/2006 12:20:09 PM PST by verga
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