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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; ears_to_hear; Aggressive Calvinist
The Supralapsarian conceives of Reprobation as being without reference to the Fall...

I don't think so. The Fall precedes from God's originating awareness of His creative actions. God creates every being with the perfect causative knowledge of that creature's end, albeit reprobation or salvation.

"The view from which it starts, that the ultimate end must be first in design, and then the intermediate means, is of force only with reference to a finite mind."

Again, I disagree. The "ultimate end" of anything God creates is accomplished from before the moment of creation.

It seems you have the same hesitation our Arminian friends voice so often -- that God is limited by His creation of both good and evil. Dabney and you seem to be saying that God merely permitted the Fall, when in actuality every step was planned and executed exactly according to His divine wisdom. God is not passive in any respect.

Calvin was right. It is a reality that is terrifying in its scope, its finality, its power.

And then comes our awareness that we are saved by the blood of Christ.

Or does God first decree that Mankind will Fall, and then Reprobate Men to Damnation on the basis of that Decree?

I've always found this a strange way for a Calvinist to think. Is there a possibility that God could have decreed that mankind would fall, and yet He wouldn't reprobate men to damnation based on that decree?

Of course not. Just like Adam, we were created to fall. Some were created to be redeemed. Some not. Vessels of wrath. Vessels of mercy.

The problem with Infralapsarianism is that it implies there is a smidgen of time when God is a reactor and not the Creator, as if God is waiting to see how the Fall plays out.

"God's decree has no succession; and to Him nonsuccessive order of parts; because it is a cotemporaneous unit, comprehended altogether, by one infinite intuition."

Well, duh. Who disagrees with that? When a man offers this line of reasoning to settle the infra/supra debate, he's lost it already.

285 posted on 03/19/2006 11:45:47 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; ears_to_hear; Aggressive Calvinist
Re: #285...

"The Fall precedes from God's originating awareness of His creative actions."

Make that, "The Fall proceeds from..."

Felled by a prefix. Drat.

298 posted on 03/20/2006 7:33:28 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
The "ultimate end" of anything God creates is accomplished from before the moment of creation.

Amen Doc !

The Lamb was slain before the foundation of the earth for MY salvation, the denial of Christ by the reprobates was set to their damnation.

Calvin was right. It is a reality that is terrifying in its scope, its finality, its power.

What places fear in the hearts of some gives confidence to those that are His. As a new Calvinist I was driving one day and considering this "terrifying" doctrine. As I prayed in my car, I suddenly had a real peace with the thought of affirmative reprobation. With that came a renewed ability to praise God for all His works and a peace in His eternal Providence .

This is not a "seeker friendly " doctrine because it removes any doubt of who has been in control for all eternity and over all things . Not one inch of wiggle room there !

304 posted on 03/20/2006 8:39:53 AM PST by ears_to_hear
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