I have not taken "random" verses as you claim. I have not taken bits and pieces. I took verses that were pertinant to the conversation we were having and that applied directly to the topic. Just as you did. So if I am guilty of dicing and splicing then you are equally culpable.
You would be correct that tongues is the least of the gifts. If I implied so, then I am sorry. That said, I do not back down from my position that the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is relevant and in use TODAY. The word "least" does not imply of no value only that the others gifts are more important.
Our church does follow the bible for the direction and use of the gifts in the church.We don't put on "shows" by purposly drinking poisens nor do we test God by foolishly handling deadly snakes. The Apostles did not do these things and neither should we. They did however preach the word in boldness, full of the Holy Ghost, they did lay hands on people and they were healed. They did cast out demons in the name of Jesus. The Holy Ghost and all the gifts are operational in our church. The word of God is preached with boldness.People are saved, healed and delievered by the laying on of hands and the prayer of faith.
You keep mocking those who speak in tongues and yet the bible teaches that this is real. Just because YOU can't understand what is being spoken does not mean it is not a language. "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels..." We call this a prayer language. "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men but unto God....in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." The key word being UNKNOWN tongue.
1 Cor. 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit "in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."
1 Cor. 14:13-14 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. [14] For if I pray in an unknown tongue, "my spirit prayeth", but my understanding is unfruitful.
1 Cor. 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men "and of angels", and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1 Cor. 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
Though the passages in 1 Corinthians speak to us on the order and operation of the gifts it does not forbid the speaking of tongues in the church. It shows how they are to be used. If you are speaking in tongues do it between you and God. If you do speak in tongues pray that it may be interpreted. Tongues and Prophecy have a purpose and work together for that purpose. The word also says to forbid not to speak in tongues.
1 Cor. 14:12-19 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. [13] Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. [14] For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. [15] What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. [16] Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? [17] For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. [18] I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: [19] Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
I understand quite well what this passage says. You accuse me of making too much of speaking in tongues. And you make to little of them. The above passage does not forbid speaking in tongues in the church. It does tell us how it is supposed to be done. These are instructions for the use of tongues and prophecy in the church. They work together. Someone speaks in tongues and it is to be interpreted for the edifying of the church. The tongues are a sign to the unbeliever and the interpretation (or prophecy) is for the edificaton of the entire church.
Paul himself says he speaks in tongues more than any of those in the church. He is not making light of the gift but helping the church to see its right use IN the church.
You keep saying that tongues were only for Isreal and only to be spoken when a person of Jewish decent was present. The prophecy was given to Isreal in the old testament but that passage in Joel shows that all classes of people would receive this outpouring. Men, women, children, elderly, even servants and/or slaves(which by the way are not necessarily going to be Jewish) followed by the statement that God will pour out His spirit upon ALL flesh. The promise is for all that God chooses to give it.
Acts 10:44-47 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. [45] And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. [46] For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, [47] Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
These people who received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost were not Jews, they were Gentiles.
Acts 11:15-18 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on "them", "as on us at the beginning". [16] Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. [17] "Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ"; "what was I, that I could withstand God?" [18] "When they heard these things, they held their peace", "and glorified God", saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
So you see, the gift of the Holy Ghost and all that goes with it is for ALL believers, not just to Isreal.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
I believe you claimed that the Holy Ghost was only for that generation and yet the above verse clearly states that it "is unto you, and to your children, and those that are afar off."
That would be 2 generations plus all those who are afar off and as many as the LORD OUR GOD SHALL CALL.
As for healing by the laying on of hands. You claim that the apostles lost this gift and you cited a single verse as proof of this.
2 Tim. 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.
The ONLY thing that that verse says is that he left Trophimus at Meletum sick. It doesn't say nor imply that the gift of healing had been removed. In fact it gives us no other information so nothing else can or should be read into it.
Acts 11:17 "Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ"; "what was I, that I could withstand God?"
The issue is if you are going to use Mk.16:17-18 as a proof text, then you have to show that this generation can indeed do the things that are listed for the Apostles and the generation converted under them.
That was what I meant by being selective in your texts.
If your church cannot prove to have the same 'signs' listed in Mk.16:17-18, then you cannot use that verse to prove that you speak in 'new tongues'
You keep mocking those who speak in tongues and yet the bible teaches that this is real. Just because YOU can't understand what is being spoken does not mean it is not a language. "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels..." We call this a prayer language. "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men but unto God....in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." The key word being UNKNOWN tongue.
An Unknown tongue is a tongue not understood by those hearing, but it is a legitimate language as those were in Acts 2.
All Paul is saying is that if no one in the church understands that particular language to interpret then the one who is moved to speak the tongue ought to be quiet.
Paul never said that tongues was made up gibberish.
1 Cor. 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit "in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."
The tongues that the individual would be speaking in would be a legitimate language that no one in the church understood.
If someone stood up in the church and began speaking Chinese, what good would it do to the hearers if no one understood Chinese?
1 Cor. 14:13-14 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. [14] For if I pray in an unknown tongue, "my spirit prayeth", but my understanding is unfruitful. 1 Cor. 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men "and of angels", and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
First, Paul doesn't say that he spoke in the language of Angels, it is a hypothetical statement, if he spoke in those languages without charity it would be as sounding brass....Paul is not saying he spoke in the language of Angels.
It is no different then in vs.3 where he states about giving all his goods to feed the poor or giving his body to be burned.
He is making the point that even if these things were true, (not that they are), without charity they would be useless.
1 Cor. 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Though the passages in 1 Corinthians speak to us on the order and operation of the gifts it does not forbid the speaking of tongues in the church. It shows how they are to be used. If you are speaking in tongues do it between you and God. If you do speak in tongues pray that it may be interpreted. Tongues and Prophecy have a purpose and work together for that purpose. The word also says to forbid not to speak in tongues.
When Corinthians was in operation, tongues were still legitimate, they aren't today, because the purpose of them (conversion of the Jew) has ceased.
They were a sign gift to the Jews.
1 Cor. 14:12-19 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. [13] Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. [14] For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. [15] What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. [16] Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? [17] For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. [18] I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: [19] Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. I understand quite well what this passage says. You accuse me of making too much of speaking in tongues. And you make to little of them. The above passage does not forbid speaking in tongues in the church. It does tell us how it is supposed to be done. These are instructions for the use of tongues and prophecy in the church. They work together. Someone speaks in tongues and it is to be interpreted for the edifying of the church. The tongues are a sign to the unbeliever and the interpretation (or prophecy) is for the edificaton of the entire church.
And is that how tongues is being used in the Charismatic Churches?
Tongues was not given for the edifying of the church, it was for the evangelism of the Jew.
Paul himself says he speaks in tongues more than any of those in the church. He is not making light of the gift but helping the church to see its right use IN the church.
He says that 5 words for edification were better then 10,000 words that no one understands.(vs.19)
You keep saying that tongues were only for Isreal and only to be spoken when a person of Jewish decent was present. The prophecy was given to Isreal in the old testament but that passage in Joel shows that all classes of people would receive this outpouring. Men, women, children, elderly, even servants and/or slaves(which by the way are not necessarily going to be Jewish) followed by the statement that God will pour out His spirit upon ALL flesh. The promise is for all that God chooses to give it.
First, nothing is said in Joel about tongues.
Second, Joel is prophesying for the Nation of Israel.
Peter is speaking to the nation of Israel (Acts.2:22).
These are promises made to the Jewish nations dealing with the New Covenant (Jer.31:31, Heb.8:8).
Acts 10:44-47 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. [45] And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. [46] For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, [47] Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? These people who received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost were not Jews, they were Gentiles.
Yes, because it was not the 'last days' and the Jew was going to be evangelized by Gentiles as prophesied in Isa.28.
Acts 11:15-18 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on "them", "as on us at the beginning". [16] Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. [17] "Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ"; "what was I, that I could withstand God?" [18] "When they heard these things, they held their peace", "and glorified God", saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. So you see, the gift of the Holy Ghost and all that goes with it is for ALL believers, not just to Isreal.
now the gift of the Holy Spirit is for both Jew and Gentile since both are one Body and cease to be either Jew and Gentile but become members of the church (Gal.3).
That was a mystery revealed only to Paul (Eph.3).
Now, every believer is baptized by the Holy Spirit into union with Christ (1Cor.12:13) becoming one with Him (Eph.5:30)
Each believer receives a spiritual gift to use for the glory of God (Eph.4).
The sign gifts of healing, tongues and prophecy (foretelling) are no longer among those gifts.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. I believe you claimed that the Holy Ghost was only for that generation and yet the above verse clearly states that it "is unto you, and to your children, and those that are afar off."
Peter is speaking to the Jews not the Gentiles.
God has to show Peter that the Gentiles are included in the offer of salvation, much to the shock of Peter (Acts 10)
That would be 2 generations plus all those who are afar off and as many as the LORD OUR GOD SHALL CALL.
What Peter is discussing in Acts 2 is the second chance offered to Israel, which had the Jews responded to, would have resulted in the Lord returning and completing all of the Old Testament prophecies, including Joel.
As for healing by the laying on of hands. You claim that the apostles lost this gift and you cited a single verse as proof of this. 2 Tim. 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick. The ONLY thing that that verse says is that he left Trophimus at Meletum sick. It doesn't say nor imply that the gift of healing had been removed. In fact it gives us no other information so nothing else can or should be read into it.
Well, I think alot can be inferred from it, since Paul did not heal him.
That was not the only case where Paul did not heal, Epaphroditus was also sick, almost dying, but he was not healed by Paul, but God.(Phil.2:25-27)
No one can do what the Apostles did in regards to healing, where even their shadows had healing power (Acts.5:15).
Now, either all of those gifts still exist (based on Mk.16:17-18) or they do not.
Acts 11:17 "Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ"; "what was I, that I could withstand God?"
Yes, the Gentiles received the gift of tongues to show to the Jews that they were indeed equal with them being now part of the same body.