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To: xzins; P-Marlowe; jude24
Once the canon is identified as the word of the apostles, then the church is subservient to it rather than vice versa.

You are absolutely correct. The Bible has primacy of position, as it ALONE is inerrant and the Church is its servant.

Otherwise, you have no written "constitution" of the church, and abuses such as existed with indulgences can flourish.

Exactly. by the way, xzins, in a different post, you said that the Catholic Church is not exactly the same as that established by Christ (paraphrasing). I would say that this might be similar to comparing a mustard seed to a mustard tree...

Also, I point out that the Vatican 2 Fathers do not say that the Roman Catholic Church "IS" the Church of Christ...

“This Church, set up and organized in this world as a society, SUBSISTS (rather than IS) in the Catholic Church, governed by the successor of Peter and the bishops in communion with him, although outside its structure many elements of sanctification and truth are to be found which, as proper gifts to the Church of Christ, impel toward catholic unity (LG 8)”

This makes the idea of partial communion and the use of “subsists in” more obvious. The FULLNESS of the faith as given by Christ exists (subsists) only within the Roman Catholic Church, but partially exists outside the visible Roman Catholic Church. This has been the teachings of the Church all the way back to even Justin the Martyr

Sorry if I changed the subject regarding the Canon - but just clarifying to some others who believe that one must be a Roman Catholic to be "in" the Church. (including some Catholics)

Regards

123 posted on 02/06/2006 9:08:44 AM PST by jo kus
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To: jo kus; xzins
You are absolutely correct. The Bible has primacy of position, as it ALONE is inerrant and the Church is its servant.

80 Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together and communicate one with the other.

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."[42]

"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."[43]

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone.
Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honoured with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."[44]

" The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him. Article 3"

bible interpretation the sole right of pope and bishops

882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful." "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."

891 The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful--who confirms his brethren in the faith--he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. ... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an Ecumenical Council. ... This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.

100 The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.
Catholic Catechism

It is whatever they say it is, or as one of my favorite singers says

"A Roman Catholic, I respect other Christians. We are especially close to those who value apostolic tradition as well as Scripture. But even in this we face further debates that are obstacles to complete Christian unity. THIS IS WHY THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH INSISTS THAT SCRIPTURE, TRADITION AND MAGISTERIUM ARE NECESSARY FOR A FULLY UNIFIED PEOPLE. WE ROMAN CATHOLICS FIND THIS IN THE POPE AS BISHOP OF ROME, TOGETHER WITH THE BISHOPS OF THE CHURCHES IN FULL COMMUNION WITH ROME. This has theologically freed us to develop the greatest mystical and functional unity in Christendom. It has also given us an authority that enables us to enter into interfaith and ecumenical dialogue without defensiveness. … May we all hear these ancient truths and experience real conversion of heart" (John Talbot, "Our Fathers, and Our Divided Family," New Covenant, September 1997, p. 21).

Sorry if I changed the subject regarding the Canon - but just clarifying to some others who believe that one must be a Roman Catholic to be "in" the Church. (including some Catholics)

You are free to attempt to claim some abstract spiritual authority over Protestants for your church if you like, but many of us do not only not agree with that we actively reject it and deny anything more than a historic tie to the Roman church.

The invisible church is made up of the saved, to that extent any saved within the Catholic church are members of the invisible church, beyond that we have no spiritual connection. To that end anyone that has believed in Christ alone for their salvation is my brother in Christ.

127 posted on 02/06/2006 9:36:53 AM PST by RnMomof7 ("Sola Scriptura,Sola Christus,Sola Gratia,Sola Fide,Soli Deo Gloria)
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