Vatican may have found late pope's 'miracle'

CNN ^ | January 30, 2006 | Philip Pullella

[NYer]

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) -- The Vatican may have found the "miracle" they need to put the late Pope John Paul II one step closer to sainthood -- the medically inexplicable healing of a French nun with the same Parkinson's disease that afflicted him.

Monsignor Slawomir Oder, the Catholic Church official in charge of promoting the cause to declare the late pope a saint of the Church, told Reuters on Monday that an investigation into the healing had cleared an initial probe by doctors.

Oder said the "relatively young" nun, whom he said he could not identify for now, was inexplicably cured of Parkinson's after praying to John Paul after his death last April 2.

"I was moved," Oder said in a telephone interview. "To think that this was the same illness that destroyed the Holy Father and it also kept this poor nun from carrying out her work."

John Paul suffered from Parkinson's Disease during the last decade of his life. His body trembled violently and he could not pronounce his words or control his facial muscles.

"To me, this is another sign of God's creativity," he said, adding that the nun worked with children.

He said Church investigators would now start a more formal and detailed probe of the suspected miracle cure.

The process that could lead to sainthood for John Paul began in May when Rome archdiocese published an edict asking Catholics to come forward with evidence "in favor or against" John Paul's reputation of holiness.

One proven miracle is required after John Paul's death for the cause to lead to beatification.

It must be the result of prayers asking the dead pope to intercede with God. Miracles are usually a physical healing that doctors are at a loss to explain.

Another miracle would be necessary between beatification and eventual sainthood.

[ksen]

They ask those who have exemplified a holy life, to intervene on their behalf.

How is that different from "praying" to someone?

The implication in the story is that she prayed to JPII for healing and he healed her, that conclusion I can understand your problem with.

[NYer]

How is that different from "praying" to someone?

Would you please pray for me? Thanks, I could use the extra prayers.

[StAthanasiustheGreat]

Praying to doesn't have the same meaning and conotation as you think or as the article interprets.

[ksen]

Hey! Did you just pray to me?

;^P

[topcat54]

I don't think I could limit myself that much; I'd be calling on all the big guns and everyone I loved who I believed was in heaven, ..

And since the big guns might be busy listening to somebody else's prayer, you would want to cover as many bases as possible. I'm sure the ex-pope is very busy these days hearing all those prayers being directed his way. I mean, does he have to take them one at a time? Does he put you on call waiting while he deals with the current crisis? Image if just 1% of all the world's Roman Catholics (not to mention some errant protestants or Orthodox) starting praying to the pope at the same time. And how do you know he's not handing the calls off to some long forgotten popes from, say, the 11th or 12th century with extra bandwidth?

It certainly seems preferable to go right to Christ since we know as God He has the bandwidth to deal with all those requests.

[topcat54]

Ping.

[DoctorMichael]

Yes, it also amazes me how these Threads bring out certain individuals.

For those unclear of the concept.............

in·ter·ces·sion    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (ntr-sshn)
n.

1. Entreaty in favor of another, especially a prayer or petition to God in behalf of another.
2. Mediation in a dispute.

---

[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin intercessi, intercessin-, intervention, from intercessus, past participle of intercdere, to intervene. See intercede.]

---

inter·cession·al adj.
inter·cessor (-ssr) n.
inter·cesso·ry adj.
[Download Now or Buy the Book]

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

intercession

n 1: a prayer to God on behalf of another person 2: the act of intervening (as to mediate a dispute) [syn: intervention]in·ter·cede    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (ntr-sd)
intr.v. in·ter·ced·ed, in·ter·ced·ing, in·ter·cedes

1. To plead on another's behalf.
2. To act as mediator in a dispute.

---

[Latin intercdere, to intervene  : inter-, inter- + cdere, to go; see ked- in Indo-European Roots.]

---

inter·ceder n.
[Download Now or Buy the Book]

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

intercede

v : act between parties with a view to reconciling differences; "He interceded in the family dispute"; "He mediated a settlement" [syn: mediate, intermediate, liaise, arbitrate]

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

[marshmallow]

Just because her prayers were for intercession does not negate the fact that she was praying to JPII, which you seem to agree with in the highlighted text above. Therefore I'm not sure why you chastised that other poster for: 1) quoting the story, and 2) for posting something you ultimately agree with, that the nun prayed to JPII.

No, I don't agree with it. There is a critical distinction which can easily be missed. The original poster implied that JPII was the end point of her prayers and I've been trying to point out that this is not the case. I hope I didn't appear to be chastising anyone. Trying to enlighten, would be more accurate.

The poster to whom I addressed my original post implied that she was praying to a man, instead of to God. There's an important theological point here which CNN's unfortunate choice of words confuses, although it clarified the situation later in the article. My response was to point out that we can ask others to intercede before God on our behalf. This not the same thing as praying the psalms or the "Our Father". This does not detract from God nor give false worship to a man as the original poster implied. That's because the end point of all prayer is God.

Other members of the Church (alive or dead) may be asked to intercede for us before God. This is not praying to them, even if CNN says it is. No disprespect to CNN but it's not the Catholic journal of record. As Catholics, we believe that we are all part of the same Church, irrespective of whether we have died in faith and gone to heaven or are still on earth and on the journey. The Church in heaven we call the Church Triumphant. The Church on earth is the Church Militant. Different branches but the same Church. This explains why it is possible to ask (or "pray to" in CNN's lingo) JPII to intercede before God for us.

Another common inaccuracy you may also see associated with this type of article from time to time is that "St. X healed me". Same mistake.

No, St. X didn't heal you. God healed you through the intercession of the saint.

[pepperhead]

God glorifies the saints, we can only recognize his act in doing so.

My only question is how do we know God has done so? It might help if God would send down some more stone tablets saying who the real saints are. Pope John Paul along with many others have done many great things but this whole sainthood thing seems ridiculous and unnecessary to me.

[mike182d]

If you are praying to anyone other than God you need to read up on your verses again.

The problem with this line of thought, as with every Protestant argument, is one of semantics. In this case, the word is: "Pray."

When the Apostles spoke with Jesus on earth, were they praying to Him? No. When we speak with Jesus now, are we praying to Him? Yes. What's the difference? One is communication with a person physically present on earth and the other is communication with a person in heaven. If your definition of prayer is solely "communication with God," you must submit that when the Apostles were talking to Jesus while fishing that they were "praying." This, of course, is nonsense.

For a Catholic, the word "prayer" does not mean "conversing with God." It means communication with those no longer on earth - God included. When we invoke the intercessions of the Saints, we are asking our brothers and sisters who are no longer on this earth and in union with God to pray for us, just as you, as a Protestant, would ask a friend on earth to pray for you. Unless you can think of another way to communicate with a person who is in heaven, Catholics will continue "praying" to our friends in heaven.

[mike182d]

I'm sure the ex-pope is very busy these days hearing all those prayers being directed his way. I mean, does he have to take them one at a time? Does he put you on call waiting while he deals with the current crisis? Image if just 1% of all the world's Roman Catholics (not to mention some errant protestants or Orthodox) starting praying to the pope at the same time. And how do you know he's not handing the calls off to some long forgotten popes from, say, the 11th or 12th century with extra bandwidth?

Apparently the Scripture: "for God, all things are possible" escapes you.

[It's me]

Why does it bother you so much what Catholic do?

I don't care a twit what other religions believe. For example, the Mormons can baptize as many of my ancestors as they want to. It means nothing to me because I do not believe what they are doing "works."

So, if a Cahtolic asks a saint to pray for them, why does it bother you?

[Mercat]

I don't think it matters, prays to, intercedes, prays for, living or dead.... the fact is, we're all fallen, limited creatures. Meditating on the good lives of people like John Paul can't be a bad thing. Focusing our energy or prayers or thoughts on his life is a positive thing to do. The Rosary for example (since this thread isn't quite riled up enough yet. :-) ) But the Rosary, like Dante's Divine Comedy, is a mediation on scripture as well as on the life of our Lord's mother. In fact, the Luminous mysteries hardly touch on her life at all. Yet a lot of non-Catholics (and Catholics too sadly) think it's just a rote recitation. I was at a seminar this past week where there was role playing which involved a mother who had recovered from alcohol and become a Buddhist. The description said she meditated. The woman next to me said she meditated - mentioned some technique which I had never heard of - I gave her a positive response and she asked whether I meditated. I told her "yes" on the Bible and by saying the Rosary. She was a bit put off by that for some reason.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Hi netmilsmom,

Just wondering, please don't interpret this post as being some kind of Catholic bash. Why don't ya just go ahead and make him a saint already? Seems as tho most Catholics on FR are for it. I've seen numberous posts to that end. Do you really need to try and justify doing it by whats described in this article?

I wonder this because you can strongly assume but in the end you really can't prove that this particular healing or any healing for that matter was the result of any one particular prayer. Thanx.

[topcat54]

Apparently the Scripture: "for God, all things are possible" escapes you.?

God, yes. A dead ex-pope. Not exactly. He couldn't do it while he was on earth, in spite of the truth that with God all things are possible. We have no reason to believe he can do it now.

[mike182d]

We have no reason to believe he can do it now.

How about: "I can do all things in Christ who strengthens me"?

Are you in a position to put limitations on what a man, united with God the Father in heaven and Jesus Christ, can do by the power of Jesus Christ?

[mike182d]

Greetings, btw :-)

[netmilsmom]

Hey!
Great to see you!

[netmilsmom]

To be quite honest with you II, I'm not a really huge fan of JPII. I think he will achieve sainthood just because so many Catholics think highly of him. I'm with you, get it done and overwith and lets stop trying to justify it. The Vatican, however, does have rules that it must follow.

However, I am a really huge fan of Christianity in general and the Catholic Church to be specific. I'm just here to note the crassness of those who just come here to slam doctrine.

I think yours is a very good question. I love it when people want to discuss, not just tell us that we are wrong.

[topcat54]

Are you in a position to put limitations on what a man, united with God the Father in heaven and Jesus Christ, can do by the power of Jesus Christ?

Well, this is an irrational faith. I can imagine all sorts of things based on this "no limits" theory, like they are sitting around eating peanut butter sandwiches or off creating new worlds populated with Smurfs. But of course I have nothing to back that up except, perhaps, what I would like to believe is happening.