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To: annalex

"I, of course, do not presume by that that you personally need an entry level introduction to the concepts of atonement and merit."

Oh, I knew that and certainly took no offense, my friend.

I'm going to bounce around a bit here.

"That monk in the East cannot be like Christ unless he directs his suffering to the spiritual benefit of fellow men. He then contributes to the same treasury of merit even though he labels these things differently: in terms of mercy rather than in terms of merit."

Ultimately, yes. The ascetical practices of monastics are directed towards the theosis of the individual monk, but in that process two things take place. First, at a "mundane" level, the monastics pray for all creation, begging God to show mercy, "Kyrie eleison, Kyrie eleison, Kyrie eleison!" This practice, among innumerable others, by the grace of God, allows the monastic to progressively die to him or herself and approach theosis. That state indeed helps creation because it is ever so much a lessening of the sin which burdens creation. We can all do this by the adoption of ascetical practices and yes, corporal acts of mercy which are as much if not more a blessing to ourselves as to others. But does the theosis of a monastic help the souls in the "place of the dead"? I've never heard that except to the extent that we all pray that God hears the prayers for mercy which we offer for the dead. I will speculate that the prayers of a holy monastic are likely more efficacious than those of a sinner like me, however. Is this what the Latin Church is refering to when it speaks of the "treasury of merit"? If so, and I guess I doubt it is, then we have another of those "same concept, different words" situations. But I hasten to add that it appears to me that there is at least some quantification of that merit in the Latin Church doctrine, that it is stored up some place waiting to be dispensed. That wouldn't be Orthodox at all. Am I misinterpreting this:

""For all who are in Christ, having his spirit, form one Church and cleave together in him" (Eph. 4:16). Therefore the union of the wayfarers with the brethren who have gone to sleep in the peace of Christ is not in the least weakened or interrupted, but on the contrary, according to the perpetual faith of the Church, is strengthened by a communication of spiritual goods. For by reason of the fact that those in heaven are more closely united with Christ, they establish the whole Church more firmly in holiness, lend nobility to the worship which the Church offers to God here on earth and in many ways contribute to building it up evermore (1 Cor. 12: 12-27). For after they have been received into their heavenly home and are present to the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8), through him and with him and in him they do not cease to intervene with the Father for us, showing forth the merits which they have won on earth through the one Mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ (1 Tim. 2:5), by serving God in all things and filling up in their flesh those things which are lacking of the sufferings of Christ for his Body which is the Church (Col. 1:24). Thus by their brotherly interest our weakness is greatly strengthened.(22)" INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA, 2:5

" Let us not forget that merit is an obverse of mercy."

I don't see this in +Paul VI's writing, certainly not in his excursus on the sacraments, the Liturgy and sacramentals. What am I missing?

" So the question arises, does the Church in the East teach that condemnation can go through an intermediate stage as well?"

Yes, both the saved and the damned, everyone, go through the "intermediate stage" in Orthodox theology. There is no concept of a mortal sin in Orthodoxy so the issue of immediate damnation into hell doesn't come up. You might be interested in this, the Orthodox Memorial Service which we pray at least on the 40th day after death, and the first and third anniversaries of a death (at least). In Orthodoxy, there is no substitute for this service and it is considered the most efficacious thing we can do for the souls of the departed.



"People: Blessed are You, O Lord, teach me Your commandments.

People: The choir of Saints has found the fountain of life and the door of Paradise. May I also find the way through repentance. I am the sheep that is lost: O Savior, call me back and save me.

People: Blessed are You, O Lord, teach me Your commandments.

People: Of old You created me from nothing and honored me with Your divine image. But when I disobeyed Your commandment, O Lord, You cast me down to the earth from where I was taken. Lead me back again to Your likeness, and renew my original beauty.

People: Blessed are you, O Lord, teach me Your commandments.

People: I am an image of Your ineffable glory, though I bear the scars of my transgressions. On Your creation, Master, take pity and cleanse me by Your compassion. Grant me the homeland for which I long and once again make me a citizen of Paradise.

People: Blessed are You, O Lord, teach me Your commandments.

People: Give rest, O God, to Your servant, and place him (her) in Paradise where the choirs of the Saints and the righteous will shine as the stars of heaven. To Your departed servant give rest, O Lord, and forgive all his (her) offenses.

People: Glory to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

People: The threefold radiance of the one God let us praise, and let us shout in song: Holy are You, eternal Father, coeternal Son, and divine Spirit! Illumine us who worship You in faith and deliver us from the eternal fire.

People: Now and forever and to the ages of ages. Amen.

People: Rejoice, gracious Lady, who for the salvation of all gave birth to God in the flesh, and through whom the human race has found salvation. Through you, pure and blessed Theotokos, may we find Paradise.

People: Alleluia. Alleluia. Alleluia. Glory to You, O God. (3)

With the Saints give rest, O Christ, to the soul of your servant (s) where there is no pain, nor sorrow, nor suffering, but life everlasting.

Tone Four


People: Among the spirits of the righteous perfected in faith, give rest, O Savior, to the soul(s) of Your servant(s). Bestow upon it (them) the blessed life which is from You, O loving One. Glory to you, our God, glory to you.

People: Within Your peace, O Lord, where all Your saints repose, give rest also to the soul of Your servant, for You alone are immortal.

People: Glory to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

People: You are our God who descended into Hades and loosened the pains of those who where chained. Grant rest also, O Savior, to the soul(s) of Your servant(s).

People: Now and forever and to the ages of ages. Amen.

People: Most pure and spotless Virgin, who ineffably gave birth to God, intercede with Him for the salvation of the soul(s) of your servant(s).

Priest: Have mercy upon us, O God, according to Your great love; we pray to You, hear us and have mercy.

People: Lord, have mercy. Lord, have mercy. Lord have mercy.

Priest: Again we pray for the repose of the soul(s) of the departed servant(s) of God (name[s]) who has/have fallen asleep, and for the forgiveness of all his/her/their sins, both voluntary and unvoluntary.

People: Lord, have mercy. Lord, have mercy. Lord have mercy.

Priest: May the Lord God place his/her/their soul(s) where the righteous repose. Let us ask for the mercies of God, the kingdom of Heaven, and the forgiveness of his/her/their sins from Christ our immortal king and God.

People: Grant this, O Lord.

Priest: Let us pray to the Lord.

People: Lord, have mercy.

Priest: O God of spirits and of all flesh , You have trampled down death and have abolished the power of the devil, giving life to Your world. Give rest to the soul(s) of Your departed servant(s) (name[s]) in a place of light, in a place of repose, in a place of refreshment, where there is no pain, sorrow, and suffering. As a good and loving God, forgive every sin he/she/they has/have committed in thought, word or deed, for there is no one who lives and is sinless. You alone are without sin. Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and Your word is truth.

Priest: For you are the resurrection, the life and the repose of Your departed servant(s) [name[s]), Christ our God, and to You we give glory, with Your eternal Father and Your all-holy, good and life-giving Spirit, now and forever and to the ages of ages.

People: Amen.

People: Glory to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, now and forever and to the ages of ages. Amen.

The Dismissal

Priest: Glory to You, O God, our hope, glory to You.

Priest: May Christ our true God, who rose from the dead and as immortal King has authority over the living and the dead, have mercy on us and save us, through the intercessions of his spotless and holy Mother; of the holy, glorious, and praiseworthy Apostles; of our venerable and God-bearing Fathers; of the holy and glorious forefathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; of his holy and righteous friend Lazaros, who lay in the grave four days; and of all the saints; establish the soul of His servant(s) (name[s]), departed from us, in the dwelling place of the saints; give rest to him in the bosom of Abraham and number him/her/them among the righteous.

People: Amen.

Priest: May your memory be eternal, dear brother/sister, for you are worthy of blessedness and everlasting memory.

People: Eternal be his/her/their memory. Eternal be his/her/their memory. May his/her/their memory be eternal.

Priest: Through the prayers of our holy Fathers, Lord Jesus Christ, our God, have mercy on us and save us.

People: Amen."


91 posted on 01/22/2006 1:36:08 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
it appears to me that there is at least some quantification of that merit in the Latin Church doctrine, that it is stored up some place waiting to be dispensed. That wouldn't be Orthodox at all

Yes, I agree that at least in the popular mind there is that quantification, which is in line with the general trend of the West to define the ineffable. It is definitely a significant difference, but I hesitate to call it a difference in dogma; I would call it a difference in phronema.

I don't see [the relationship between merit and mercy] in +Paul VI's writing

I will try to expound on this later, maybe tomorrow. I think the passage I cited relates the merit to the superabundant merit of the sacrifice of Christ, and the channel of connection is mercy, rather than any kind of purchase of merit for temporal suffering. Maybe I read the subtext into the actual words when I say so. I was thinking that as we know the Sacrifice of the Mass is not another sacrifice to augment Christ's, but a revivification of the same superabundantly efficacious sacrifice. Likewise, indulgenced work is not an addition to the suffering of Christ but rather a participation in that same suffering.

Yes, both the saved and the damned, everyone, go through the "intermediate stage" in Orthodox theology.

Aha. This is indeed, very significant.

92 posted on 01/22/2006 4:51:54 PM PST by annalex
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