Posted on 01/15/2006 3:06:52 PM PST by SirLinksalot
1st Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife...
1st Timothy 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife...
Titus 1:5-6 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: If any be blameless, the husband of one wife...
These guys need to read the Bible more.
You wrote: "In the NT, where Christianity is moving into Pagan cultures where polygamy may be the norm, the guideline for Christian behavior is being laid out."
Let me stop you right here. To be more precise, prior to Jesus's resurrection, a covenant relationship with God was only available, more or less, to the descendants of Abraham. After Jesus died and rose EVERYBODY could have that same if not better covenantal relationship with God.
So, to characterize this phenomena as 'Christianity moving into pagan cultures' while not untrue, reflects a rather fuzzy kind of thinking. But, your point is well taken and SPECIFICALLY addressed in the Bible. The Jewish leaders came together and, seeing that gentiles were now allowed to have covenant with God (which at first blew them away) made decisions on how they should behave. Their decision is found in Acts 15:19-20:
19 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
If you're line of reasoning were correct, than they most certainly would have told these Pagan cultures where polygamy may be the norm to stop having more than one wife. But they didn't. Sexual immorality basically means having sex with someone you're not married to. Like David did with Bathsheeba, for which he was condemned. He was NOT condmened for taking more than one wife however.VERY important and foretelling distinction.
"Granted this is for church leaders, but the principle of one wife/one husband for everyone is an underlying there."
Not really.
Mature Christians, the type who led churches, are to have one spouse. Elsewhere in the NT all are exhorted to grow into maturity. I see that as the point to refute those who don't aspire to become elders/deacons.
Now you are conflating 'maturity' with practical requirements made of church leaders. But the Bible makes it very CLEAR that only married men (and married one time only) are to lead churches. Does that mean women cannot be mature? Or single men? There's no such thing as a mature divorced man???
Sorry, as much as you may want it to be true, it's not. There is no express prohibition/condemnation of polygamy in the Bible.
Right. And, to be fair, it's not necessarily rousingly endorsed either. lol! Of course, ... there is also no express prohibition/condemnation of sticking a fork into a live electrical outlet in Bible either.
Wow! Talk about a cheap shot. See...you just WANT it not to be legit.
But we are counseled (commanded) ... to be wise ... and to live lives (as christians) ... free from even the appearance of selfishness and sin. Every single example of polygamy in the Bible is portrayed as having negative results ...
Oh really?? Can you share with us the 'negative results portrayed in the Bible as a result of Gideon taking more than one wife? How bout Noah's dad, cause he had a couple too? And do be specific. lol!
With these as the fruit of polygamy protrayed in the Bible, I don't think that anyone could claim that such a lifestyle could be considered a 'wise' choice.
Well, since your premise if flawed, no need to counter. But I don't disagree that polygamy may not be a wise decision. That seems a legit point. It's just that people have that choice to make (unwise though it may be) and nothing in the Bible outright condemns (nor encourages) it...
Wow! Following the crackerjack logic espoused by this poster, I am declaring right now that The Bible is against us voting for Republicans in the 06 midterms!
Why???
Well true, if you read the Bible, there is no express prohibition/condemnation of voting republican. But neither is there against sticking a fork into a live electrical outlet either.
LOL!
No, it is quite precise. Christianity, therefore the covenant of Grace, did not reach the entire world in 33 A.D. There is a historical progression, as described in the Epistles and various non-Scriptural writings.
Does that mean women cannot be mature?
No, it does not. But I am answering the question posed, not writing a comprehensive systematic Theology.
Very true and the world as a whole is still paying for Abraham & Sarah's impatience. Believe me I don't support the insane act :>} I just realize why it was necessary in mans early history.
"Very true and the world as a whole is still paying for Abraham & Sarah's impatience. Believe me I don't support the insane act :>} I just realize why it was necessary in mans early history."
And still ... others here on "conservative" FR (LOL), still don't find God's will acceptable.
I guess somethings never change ... what God wants for us doesn't also match up with what fallible mortals want or wish to fantasize about.
Well, I hate to split hairs but you almost have to on a topic like this in which clearly polygamy is NOT condemned yet so many people think/wish/want it to be., so...
Here is a simple, explanation of what happened: Adam sinned.
God blood Covenanted with Abraham allowing HIS descendants to be a part of that protective pact.
Jesus lived.died.rose and thus opened that covenant (built on better promises) to anyone with faith.
The requirements put on those now open to faith is found in Acts 15 and do NOT include abandoning polygamy. Sorry, it just doesn't.
Does that mean women cannot be mature?
No, it does not. But I am answering the question posed, not writing a comprehensive systematic Theology.
Translation: My statement has been proven to be illogical and irrelevant to the discussion of polygamy.
It's not a matter of you stating that. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
It's a matter of you backing it up, which you clearly haven't in all your umpteen posts on this topic, which is probably why you now take to not-so-subtly insulting the spiritual sensibilities of those who don't buy what you're selling...
Eph 5:31
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
1Ti 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti 3:12
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
1Co 9:5
Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
1Co 9:5
Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
1 Cor 7:2 2
Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.
1Co 9:5
Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
1 Cor 7:2 2
Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband
1 Cor 7:3 3
Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
This was God's plan all along. He didn't create multiple Eve's. He created ONE Eve for Adam. Just because man has a habit of being disobedient doesn't justify disobedience. In EVERY situation where polygamy took place in the Bible, without God's blessing, nothing good has come from it. It seems clear to me that there is nothing good about polygamy. I believe we were to learn that from the Bible and not promote polygamy or pretend to be confused about it being wrong.
Sad but soooo true.
Believe me I don't support the insane act :>} I just realize why it was necessary in mans early history.
Why? There's no ABSOLUTE NECESSITY of polygamy at any time in human history. You could argue that for incest at the beginning and after the flood, but there's never been a time where man HAD to practice polygamy. Nor is there now. It's just not outlawed by the Bible.
And still ... others here on "conservative" FR (LOL), still don't find God's will acceptable. Wow! So, it's not God's will for people to be polygamous. Why didn't he said that. God certainly wasn't shy about divorce, he says 'I hate divorce.' Seems pretty definitive. A simple 'I hate polygamy' would have settled this matter a long time ago.
Too bad it's not in there, huh?
I guess somethings never change ... what God wants for us doesn't also match up with what fallible mortals want or wish to fantasize about.
Well, you keep beating around the bush with all this 'fallible mortals', 'not God's will', 'wish to fantasize about' rhetoric. I say we cut to the chase.
Many if not most men want more than one women. Not all. Some have found their 'Eve' and their done.
But, in case you haven't noticed, even in so-called monogamous societies like ours, men having multiple women in their lives is THE NORM. Even in Christian circles. Although, I would say it's more of men 'wanting' that than actually practicing it. (At least I hope so!)
But, there's only one legitimate BIBLICAL way for man to have sex with a woman. That's to make a permanent lifetime covenant with her we call marriage.
Want more than one? Marry her.
That's how it works and is hardly anybody's fantasy. Ps It is however quite a reality that women and weak men are against polygamy for reasons that go to the heart of what fuels their non-Biblical angst. They DON'T want men to have more than one woman. lol!
Too bad the Bible won't back them up on their aversion to polygamy. But I can almost guarantee you this, as I post, there are people emailing or contacting their pastor or other trusted Christian friend to find a way to refute these points.
Too bad they'll be unsuccessful, huh?
Yes, there are cults out there that would like to believe that a blood transfusion is the same as EATING blood, which it is not.
I agree with you but disagree with the motives you impugn to these people whom you call 'cult'members. I think they just have a different interpretation. One that is wrong.
Oh my ... here we go again ... why oh why isn't God's word good enough for you?
Funny...I was gonna ask you that VERY same question!
He's doesn't advocate polygamy. He advocates a traditional marriage.
Nonesense. There is no such thing as a 'traditional' marriage. God honors covenants. The most important is the one between God and man. (The New Covenant.) The 2nd most important is between man and women (which is to be a picture of the 1st most important covenant.) These are 'till death do you part' covenants.
There are many verses in the Bible that support, one man for one woman: (An excerpt from #44)
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
No contradiction to polygamy here. Everytime a polygamist marries, he becomes one with his wife.
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Does not apply to non-elders. Nice try, though.
1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
Does not apply to non-elders. Nice try agin, though you insistence on using non-applicable scriptures reveals you really don't understand the issues at hand.
1Co 9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
Yes or not or more than one. Nothing in here suggest he HAS to have a sister, a wife nor does it suggest he can't have more than one, although, as an elder Paul wouldn't be allowed to but heck, Paul didn't even want one wife! See, God gives us choices in this world. Too bad you want to limit men, huh?
1Co 9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
You're repeating yourself. lol!
1 Cor 7:2 2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.
OK. So, you contact every single Christian in the world of marriagable age. Starting with college freshman and all the way to senior citizens centers and INSIST that they all obtain their ONE wife or husband. After all, it says so, right?
1Co 9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
Didn't you try (and fail) to make this point a minute ago? lol
1 Cor 7:3 3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
Exactly. No matter how many wives a man has. This is a guiding truth.
This was God's plan all along. He didn't create multiple Eve's. He created ONE Eve for Adam.
Right. Before the fall. Now our 'adam' or 'eve' is Jesus. He is the ONLY one who can solely fulfill us like adam did eve and vv.
Just because man has a habit of being disobedient doesn't justify disobedience.
Sorry Miss Circuitious reasoning, but starting with the premise that something which is NOT disobedience is in fact disobedience, leads to flawed conclusions.
In EVERY situation where polygamy took place in the Bible, without God's blessing, nothing good has come from it.
I ask for the 2nd time. Please point out the horrible things the bible says happened because of polygamy when Gideon took extra wives or when Noah's dad lamech did.
Chirp...Chirp...
It seems clear to me that there is nothing good about polygamy.
Well hallelujah! Now you're making my point for me. You are as clear as mud on this issue, conflating practical requirments for church elders with guidelines for the Body of Christ as a whole as well as confusing Solomon's worship of other gods with his multiple marriages as a source of his downfall.
I believe we were to learn that from the Bible and not promote polygamy or pretend to be confused about it being wrong.
Interesting I'm clear and not pretending to be confused.
You are confused and pretending to be clear. Kind of symmetric, huh?
Ps Here's a verse she didn't mention (this is God speaking to King David thru the prophet):
I gave your master's house to you, and your master's wives into your arms. I gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more....
A simple 'I hate polygamy' would have settled this matter a long time ago.
Too bad it's not in there, huh?
And it would take that to satisfy you as to God's desire, huh ?
I thought that we had agreed that, per the Biblical evidence, ... polygamy is certainly not a wise choice.
... and God certainly commands us to be wise, ... doesn't He ?
Well ... what more do you want ?
And it would take that to satisfy you as to God's desire, huh ?
Absolutely. Once I read that about divorce. I knew divorce was NOT an option for me. And that's in the OTestament, too!
I thought that we had agreed that, per the Biblical evidence, ... polygamy is certainly not a wise choice. and God certainly commands us to be wise, ... doesn't He ? Well ... what more do you want?
My position is that polygamy is NOT denounced in the Bible but that monogamy is CLEARLY deemed to be the norm. But, as creepy as the polygamists seem to me personally, if you're a guy who wants to have sex with lots of women, then the ONLY Biblical solution for you is to marry them till death do you part.
That my friend, is NO ONE'S fantasy. lol!
Ps David's life became (and stayed) would I can only characterise as a living hell only AFTER his adulterous/murderous affair with Bathsheba.
He lived prior to that with many Wives for a number of years (as I understand it) without dealing with all the crap that came afterwards.
It was the adultery that opened up up to such a horrific life.
Solomon's many wives led him astray to worship other god's.
Moral of the story:
If you're gonna be a polygamy man, be sure to marry only spirit-filled, obedient-to-the-bible wives who will HELP your walk with God...not hinder it.
1 Kings 11:4
As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
THAT, was Solomon's downfall. Heck, one bad woman could have done that to him. Did the odds increase with more Wives? Abso-frickin'-lutely. That's why Mr.Polygamy has to be EXTRA wise in choosing his life partner(s.)
Nothing is worth costing you your relationship with God.
Nothing...
I ask for the 2nd time. Please point out the horrible things the bible says happened because of polygamy when Gideon took extra wives or when Noah's dad lamech did.
Gideon's 70th (or 71st) son ... killed all of his half-brethren ... save one.
Lamech's family life is not illustrated in the pages of the Bible, but we do know that all of his family perished in the flood ... with the exception of Noah, ... who was singularly faithful.
I think that I would follow the example of faithful Noah (who was married to one wife), ... rather than faithless Lamech.
This guy claims Abraham had more than one wife. That is not true as far as I remember. Not only was Hagar a concubine but look at the damage which grew out of that mistake.
And this, the Bible teaches, is because of Gideon taking extra wives??? I'd like to see that in black and white.
Seriously, if you're gonna blame every family's tragedy on polygamy, you're gonna have to explain how the DOZENS of stories of misfortune occuring to monogamists in the Bible could have ever happened...
Lamech's family life is not illustrated in the pages of the Bible
Whoa! I thought you said the Bible does not give us any examples of good coming from polygamy.
Here you have THE ONLY RIGHTEOUS MAN ON THE ENTIRE PLANET....and he came from a polygamous family.
I say
Game.
Set.
Match.
How about you???
Ps I think the best we can say about polygamy from the scriptures is that it's an acceptable option that must be handled with EXTREME care and wisdom.
Solomon's wives got him off track with God. David, also a polygamist, is said, in that VERY SAME VERSE, to not have lost his love for God. But David got tripped up with adultery.
With all due respect to oscar winners 'Three 6 Mafia' - It's Hard Out There for a Poly ...
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