LOL! But, since these are Paul's words, I suppose you escape....FOR NOW! :) Seriously, perhaps we can now say that you and I agree that Paul's writings used a plain meaning approach to the meaning of the word "works", and professed that good works done to earn anything would not earn salvation.
Whew!! Well, Paul does use the word "save" in the past, present, and future tense. I think this can make it confusing for us, at times. In Titus 3, Paul must be talking about that initial acceptance of Jesus Christ and Baptism. We (you and I) agree that we are "saved" by faith without any merit on our part regarding initial salvation. God certainly prepares us to receive Him, but nothing we do earns or merits that first gift of initial salvation. Thus, we together can agree with Paul's writing to Titus. He clearly tells us that being "saved" is the Baptism event, although in other places, he talks about being "saved" as a future event. Thus, our discussions!
I know you must mean to include the sacraments as deeds of love, not done for the purpose of earning anything. I'd like to know how "works" (not required for salvation) are distinguished from "deeds of Love" (necessary for salvation). Is it counted by God as whatever is in the heart of the person at the time? I ask because any two people could have completed the same good deed or act, with one doing it for the thought of profit and the other doing it out of love. Is this part of the mix?
I don't think we see the sacraments as "deeds of love". We see them more as means of grace - like Baptism is. They are not things that earn us salvation, but a manner of Christ coming to us invisibly through a ritual, visible means. For example, the sacrament of Confession. We realize that the priest has been given the power by Christ (through the Apostles) to forgive sins. And while confession in one's own room to God is effective in minor sins, the Church teaches us that major sins require absolution through the sacrament. In the sacrament, God's mercy is made visible through the words of the priest "I absolve you of your sins". We can ask for advice, and through the penance, we are more in-tune with the proper disposition - sorrow and a desire to make amends for our sins. Thus, the sacraments are a tool, a means of grace in the visible realm. Psychologists tend to agree that confessing our faults to others (rather than ourselves) is more healthy and allows closure. So emotionally and spiritually, God "saves" (heals) us through the sacrament.
The sacraments themselves are effective in that they ALWAYS pass grace to the person, no matter their disposition. However, their effect will vary, depending on that person's piety and disposition towards Christ. As we have discussed, a sacrament always extends sufficient grace - but whether it will be efficacious will depend also on the recipient (without getting into "secondary causes"!)
As to a deed of love, yes, I think Christ teaches that our inner disposition is very important. For example, he teaches the Pharisees that their deeds of tithing or extra fasting was not bad in of itself, (which showed their desire to be closer to God) but the attitude of pride made their action centered on themselves, rather than God. So yes, a person's disposition will determine whether we are cooperating with God's graces in moving our will to do His will.
Not to nitpick, but if your "close-parens" is where you want it, I would just note that as a Southern Baptist, I believe that baptism has nothing to do with salvation.
Really? What's the point of it? Can I use Titus 3:5 again? I'd prefer not to change the subject now, but this seems something that we can discuss later.
The Scriptures (both OT and NT) talk about a person's name being blotted out of the book of Life!
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." (Rev 3:5 - implies that one's name CAN be blotted out.
"And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Therefore now go, lead the people unto [the place] of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them." (Ex 32:33-34)
It seems that God reserves the right to cast us out, based on His judgment of how we walked in faith.
When you first prayed, did you just let go and open your heart completely? In your mind, did you stand there naked before God and say "Here I am God, I am nothing, you are everything, please save me?"
I believe so. And I can examine my own walk and see that God is slowly guiding me to become a better Christian. I agree that we have a good idea (but never presume) that TODAY, we are walking in Christ (Scriptures tell us that we know this when we are obeying the commandments). It seems unlikely, but I can't predict the future and my walk then. Perhaps something terrible will happen and I will lose my faith in God's Providence. Perhaps I will then slowly drift into sin or indifference. During this gradual rejection of God's graces, I may then commit those sins that Paul says prevent us from inheriting the Kingdom (1 Cor 6). If I continue, without repentance, and subsequently die, according to the Scripture, I would expect my name to have been blotted out of the Book of Life.
Paul, esp. in 1 Cor 10:1-12 and Hebrews 3-4, he makes it clear that we must not presume that we are saved for eternal life. The 1 Cor 10 story about the "saved" Jews is rather poignant on this. He ends the story with "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." (1 Cor 10:12) We can have confidence that God will not fail us. It is myself that I must pray to continue the race, to walk the narrow path, to carry my cross, etc. Final perseverance cannot be merited. I think this line of thinking helps keep us humble and not overconfident.
All you have to give, is everything you have.
Have you spoken to people who have fallen away, after making this "sinner's prayer"? I realize that people often say things and really mean it during such an emotional moment. But we must walk in faith. WALK! Not talk! I have confidence that the Lord will provide everything I need to enter the Kingdom of Heaven in its fullness. But, as Paul discusses in Romans 7, I continue to fight the flesh. I don't get the idea that the battle is over when I read the Scriptures, just because of my Baptism/sinner's prayer. If I am saved irrefutably on that day for eternal life, what is the point of sanctification? Aren't we "covered with the blood of Christ", once we make that confession? What would be the need to continue to fight, unless there is something more? Moral exhortations are pointless for already "saved" people who cannot loose their salvation.
Brother in Christ
Now you're toying with me. :) I thought I understood that Catholic belief was that salvation is finally achieved through God's grace and the lifelong taking of the sacraments. I thought the sacraments were required for final salvation. Is the last statement meant to introduce a new concept of salvation or are you just messing with my mind? (LOL!)
Really? What's the point of it [baptism to a Baptist]?
We believe that salvation is completely achieved by the acceptance by the believer of Christ as Savior and Lord into his or her heart. To us, believer's baptism is very important, and is required for church membership. We see it as a public obedience to God, Jesus did it, said we should do it, so we should do it. It is an important symbol of regeneration, however, baptism does not save because the one to be baptized is presumed to have already been saved.
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." (Rev 3:5 - implies that one's name CAN be blotted out.
Thanks for this and the following verses. I'm not sure I buy this one as support, though. Sure, God can do anything, but here He is specifically saying that He will not blot out a name. Of course, He can, but it doesn't imply that He will
"And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Therefore now go, lead the people unto [the place] of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them." (Ex 32:33-34)
This verse, OTOH, is much more "troublesome". I looked it up in my NIV and there is no issue of translation. The footnote I have says that this OT "Book" is a book of the physically living, and that being blotted out means an untimely death. The NT "Book" in Revelation is the Book of Life that I am familiar with. By itself, this explanation doesn't exactly rock my world, so I admit I can't say about this one. Dr. E or Harley (or anyone), can you add anything to this?
Perhaps something terrible will happen and I will lose my faith in God's Providence.
Nah, never happen. Hey, I'm a Protestant, I know these things. Trust me. :)
Final perseverance cannot be merited. I think this line of thinking helps keep us humble and not overconfident.
I always applaud the seeking of humility. I think this is where my side takes some unfair criticism from others for being arrogant, etc. There is nothing in our beliefs that involves resting on our laurels because we already have a "ticket". We also do not believe that we can be sure because we declare it so. We just honestly believe that there are many promises in the Bible that lead to surety. Our approach, when clearly appropriate, is to take a plain meaning of the promise and then to rest in joy and thanksgiving.
I don't get the idea that the battle is over when I read the Scriptures, just because of my Baptism/sinner's prayer. If I am saved irrefutably on that day for eternal life, what is the point of sanctification?
I agree that the battle is not over once, in my view, salvation is achieved. In fact, the new believer can be sure of an increase in attacks by satan. One beauty of salvation is its simplicity, another is that it begins the lifelong process of sanctification with the new help of the Spirit.
God's ordinance is that we be sanctified and grow ever closer to Him throughout our new Christian lives. We believe the Bible is simple enough for a child to understand (that which is needed for salvation) and deep enough to envelop the greatest thinkers of all time. With the new help of the Spirit, many of the mysteries of the Bible can be discovered, and we will lead better, more Godly, and happier lives while on earth.