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To: Kolokotronis
we really are chanting with those angels, and all the saints in a celestial chorus.

I appreciate what you're trying to communicate here. But scripture does not offer much support for such practices being superior. There is no established order of worship prescribed other than the preaching and expounding of scripture and the singing of psalms and hymns.

My own natural tendency is to prefer the oldest hymns and be a little stiff-necked about it. Yet, we are all creatures of limited lifespan and God has placed us in a chaotic and ever-changing world. It seems to me that our faith can be well and truly practiced in many languages and there is considerable variety allowed within the orthodox (small-O) Christian faith.

I am not certain that your preservation of the ancient hymns are any more or less pleasing to God than a group of Korean Presbyterians or African Baptists singing passionately in their own tongues. Believing that the angels are singing with you is a sweet notion but not supported in scripture.

It's worth considering the point. After all, the New Testament was not written in Hebrew (or Latin!) and does have many indications that the apostles were flexible in adapting to varying cultures and to Greek and Roman culture. It's a constant example to us lest we become too comfortable in our own little sandboxes. I think God does not like us to be too comfortable in familiar ritual.
8,550 posted on 06/13/2006 11:19:54 PM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: George W. Bush; annalex; kosta50; stripes1776; Agrarian

"I appreciate what you're trying to communicate here. But scripture does not offer much support for such practices being superior. There is no established order of worship prescribed other than the preaching and expounding of scripture and the singing of psalms and hymns."

You are of course correct. However, the Divine Liturgies of Orthodoxy, and to an extent the Latin Rite Mass, are pretty much the same form of worship used by The Church when the canon of the NT was established so it occurs to me that the fact that the NT doesn't give us the rubrics of Christian worship likely didn't concern The Church. As a matter of fact, the Liturgy is rather like what we know of Jewish Temple ceremonies. If you take a look at the order of the Liturgy online, you'll see that it is a combination of the Last Supper and precisely the psalm singing and scripture reading you refer to.

"It seems to me that our faith can be well and truly practiced in many languages and there is considerable variety allowed within the orthodox (small-O) Christian faith."

I agree at least about the language. Orthodoxy has always worshipped in the language of the people, though it may have been a "liturgical language" like Slavonic. In our Greek Orthodox parish, the majority of the Liturgy is chanted in English because that is the common language of the community.

"Believing that the angels are singing with you is a sweet notion but not supported in scripture."

If the Liturgy were simply a group of people saying prayers and singing hymns and play acting out the Last Supper (I don't know how else to put it), an event which occurs in time, I would agree with you, but The Church does not believe that. I will grant you, however, that if a Christian is cut off from the beliefs of The Church concerning what is going on in the central act of the Lturgy, namely the Eucharist, The Church's beliefs on many things will seem to be foolishness.

"After all, the New Testament was not written in Hebrew (or Latin!) and does have many indications that the apostles were flexible in adapting to varying cultures and to Greek and Roman culture."

Which of course would explain why it was written pretty much totally in Greek, though that was for practical evangelizing reasons, my own conceit that Greek is God's own language to the contrary notwithstanding! :)

"It's a constant example to us lest we become too comfortable in our own little sandboxes. I think God does not like us to be too comfortable in familiar ritual."

Sounds vaguely Episcopalian.



8,559 posted on 06/14/2006 3:17:36 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: George W. Bush; Kolokotronis; annalex; jo kus; stripes1776; Agrarian
There is no established order of worship prescribed other than the preaching and expounding of scripture and the singing of psalms and hymns

That is not true at all GWB. The Church is liturgical because Judaism is liturgical. The early Church worship was an extension of Judaism, with the "breaking of the bread" added to it. It has all the elements of reading the Scripture, communal prayers, singing of the psalms and hymns, and reaching the apex, just as the revelation of God reached the apex with Jesus Christ, with the Eucharist.

The Apostolic Church sees itself as a seamless continuation of the same faith of Moses and Abraham and Jacob.

8,572 posted on 06/14/2006 7:31:56 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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