"And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." Acts 19:1-6<
The immediate section before, Luke again distinguishes between the baptism of John and the Baptism of the Spirit with regards to Apollos. From above, it should be clear that the Spirit does NOT come upon men "merely" at the point of belief.
Actually, the section you cite says that Paul came across certain disciples ... who knew nothing of the Holy Spirit.
How could one be a disciple of Jesus ... andd be ignorant of the the person of the Holy Spirit.
My conclusion was that these were disciples ... of John (the Baptist) and, as such, ... had only received his baptism (for repentence).
The fact that these hadn't, as yet, been baptized with with Jesus' baptism ... also supports this conclusion.
John may have pointed these to Jesus ... but they had yet to meet Him, either physically or spiritually.
I also note that the Holy Spirit came upon them when Paul laid hands on them ... not as of their christian baptism.
By the way, nice to hear from you again.
It is good to converse with you, as well.
I just found out that Randall passed away earlier this week. It is so difficult to understand. They actually found a marrow donor for Randall several weeks ago, ... but the doctors said that Randall, by then, was too weak to survive the transplant operation.
We had been praying for him to be strengthened so that he might receive the transplant. But it appears that it was not meant to be.
Thank-you, and all those who participated with you, ... for your prayers and kind intentions.
Please pray for the family ... that God might comfort them.
Thanks again,
Chuck
Sorry, I am just quoting what the Scriptures say. Apollos was preaching the Word, although not as accurately as he could have (as he was taken aside by Aquilla and Priscilla). This is common sense, as people even today claim to have the Spirit and preach PART of God's Word - but this doesn't follow that the Spirit resides within them. Even an atheist can read the Bible and learn things from it and spit it back out when asked.
"This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John." Acts 18:25
As you can see, the Spirit was working in Apollos, but He had not been baptized in the Spirit yet. I think that the confusion is that some people believe that if the Spirit is present, a person is saved. This cannot be the case, as the Spirit has entered at least ONCE into EVERY person - as Paul describes in Romans 2 when discussing the Law written on the hearts of pagans, by the spirit. It is in the Baptism event when the Spirit comes in power and places His seal upon the person.
Of course, the ritual itself doesn't do the work. We often point to the Naaman story in the OT. He too doubted that the water would do any good for curing him of leprosy. After being healed, he realized it was God working through the water that cured (saved) him. In the same way, so are we. The water and ritual is merely an outward sign that something invisibly wonderful is happening.
My conclusion was that these were disciples ... of John (the Baptist) and, as such, ... had only received his baptism (for repentence).
Certainly. I think Christianity was in a great flux during this point in history. Teaching was by word of mouth, and probably not very comprehensive or cohesive. Perhaps people were more concerned with teaching the Risen Lord then the Holy Ghost.
I also note that the Holy Spirit came upon them when Paul laid hands on them ... not as of their christian baptism.
I would say that this was when Paul conferred upon them the office of Holy Orders, as these men became the leaders of the Church at Ephesus, whom Paul bid farewell to on the way to Jerusalem.
I just found out that Randall passed away earlier this week. It is so difficult to understand. They actually found a marrow donor for Randall several weeks ago, ... but the doctors said that Randall, by then, was too weak to survive the transplant operation. We had been praying for him to be strengthened so that he might receive the transplant. But it appears that it was not meant to be.
I am sorry to hear that, for the sake of Randall's mother and those close to him. I imagine it is a difficult situation for those who have been praying for him and close to him - and see God take Randall anyway. I pray this doesn't weaken anyone's faith in God and I will pray for the peace of the Lord to settle on the family and the repose of Randall's soul today at Adoration.
Joe