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To: kosta50
The "'original sin' is understood not so much as a state of guilt inherited from Adam but as an unnatural condition of human life that ends in death. Mortality is what each man now inherits at his birth and this is what leads him to struggle for existence, to self-affirmation at the expense of others, and ultimately to subjection to the laws of animal life."

Of course. Man inherits mortality, and concupiscence, as well. We have inherited a tendency to sin that was not there before

The concept of inherited "guilt" as opposed to "damage" is a very different mindset that prevailed in the theology of the East and the West from Augstine onward.

I think we take a broader definition of "guilt". We certainly see ourselves as "damaged", as well. Sure, we don't have Adam's personal sin on us, as if it was our responsibility. But we (and you, I believe) see Adam as the universal man (as Christ would become), thus, his "sin" is our sin, as our fallen nature shows. Guilt does bring about a different mindset, you are correct. However, one can find both concepts in the Fathers before St. Augustine. Again, it is two ways of approaching the same problem, man's fallen nature.

We have not broken the law by inheritiy mortality from our ancestral parents, so there is no guilt and if there is no guilt there is no need to "pay back" anything.

Retribution, redemption, atonement, payback. All are part and parcel of the Christian view of Christ's work on the Cross. It certainly is not the only view, which is why I continue to see a reconciliation between our positions on this subject. I see us looking at the issue from two different views.

Sin is willful disobedience to God. Obviosuly, infants do not sin. So, there is nothing to "wash off."

Sin is the absence of God's presence, something against His will. Scriptures tell us that one might sin and not know about it! I think this is more an OT concept, but Paul talks about it, as well. An infant requires baptism not because of personal sin, because there is a lack of God's presence, the inherited nature of humanity, the damaged goods, so to speak. Because of the fall, we are no longer "children of God". When the early Church talks about baptism for the remission of sin for children, I think they sense that the infant has not committed personal sin, but still conducted the ritual as they sensed somthing amiss in man's fallen state (even an infant) that required it.

Regards

8,168 posted on 06/08/2006 10:04:53 AM PDT by jo kus (There is nothing colder than a Christian who doesn't care for the salvation of others - St.Crysostom)
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To: jo kus
We have inherited a tendency to sin that was not there before

That is not what the Orthodox Church teaches, jo. God created us neither good nor evil, neither mortal nor immortal; but potentially both.

Guilt does bring about a different mindset, you are correct. However, one can find both concepts in the Fathers before St. Augustine

The Scripture is clear that we cannot assume another man's guilt, jo.

Retribution, redemption, atonement, payback

Jo, redemption is something we were given through Christ's sacrifice. We owe God gratitude, but He did not give us His blessings with an obligation. It has to come from the heart; it is not a penalty we must pay. Atonement is just: a willing rejection of our ingratitude to God; not a payback.

Sin is the absence of God's presence

Jo, I have heard that quoted many times but that is taken out of context. Sin is absence of God in a sinner. Infants are not sinners. Baptism is a petition for adoption. For sinners, it has a prerequisite of confession and repentance of the sins committed, knowingly or unknowingly. Infants have not committed any sins. They are simply brought into the Church with a changed heart, with Spirit in them, so that they may choose freely. They are freed form their animal nature and given freedom to will b other than necessity.

8,181 posted on 06/08/2006 10:44:42 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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