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To: Forest Keeper
The only passage that even comes close to attempting to claim that Baptism has salvific effects is 1 Peter 3:20-21. I have already made my case that it was not the water that saved Noah and his family, it was the ark.

That's not what the Scriptures said. You are trying to twist Scriptures again. Clearly, Peter is using the waters around the Ark (the Church) as a prefigurement of Baptism. Let me remind you again what the Bible SAYS!!!

"when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism" 1 Peter 3:20-21

As uncomfortable as this might be to you, the Bible clearly tells us that Baptism saves. Period.

There is a mountain of scripture against your interpretation. Baptism is symbolic of spiritual salvation.

It's more than a symbol. God works THROUGH this visible symbol. Otherwise, at what point are we made children of God?

Repentance is the inward step that saves and baptism is the outward, public representation of that. Here, "for" means "because of" just like in Matt. 12:41.

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. " Acts 2:38

Your interpretation makes no sense. Repent and be baptized ...in the name of the Jesus Christ because of the remission of sins?

There are two births needed to be saved. One is natural birth and one is spiritual birth. Neither involve a water Baptism. That comes later to observe the spiritual birth and to publicly identify with Christ's Church.

LOL!!! Whew! Stop it! There is only ONE birth needed to be saved! Spiritual. EVERYONE is born naturally, so it figures NOTHING into the formula on who is saved and who is not saved! HOW CAN AN UNBORN, NON-EXISTENT PERSON BE SAVED??? Christ Himself corrects Nicodemus' idea that salvation has anything to do with the fleshy birth...

Rom 6:2-4 speaks of baptism of the Spirit into Christ. Water baptism symbolizes this. Water isn't even mentioned here

LOL!!! What does the word "baptism" mean? To dunk in water? You are cracking me up with your defenses against the Scriptures. What is sad that NOT ONE of the Church Fathers, who read the Scriptures in Greek, make these types of interpretations. They can only come from someone who actually is in denial that they are wrongly interpreting Scriptures...

Heb 10:22-23 doesn't even speak of baptism of any kind. Neither does Ez. 36:24-28. Sure they do. What other "cleanse with water" and "giving a clean heart" do you suppose Ezekiel is talking about? Jeez.

Christ's ministry was not about salvation by ritual, it was about salvation by grace and faith.

What are you, a Greek Gnostic? Have a problem with the material? Christ did miracles using water, mud, spit. He didn't have an aversion to the Jewish customs and rituals, only when done with improper inner motivation. Christ didn't come to overturn the Law, but fulfill it - LOVE. Since we are a dual creation, living in the material and spiritual worlds, we contact God in both places. We worship God in spirit and truth, and we worship God with our bodies through rituals. Our entire person. Thus, God comes to us during the ritual of Baptism, as He promised, to baptize us into Christ's resurrection, applying the works of Christ to our individual person.

Regards

8,156 posted on 06/08/2006 7:42:07 AM PDT by jo kus (There is nothing colder than a Christian who doesn't care for the salvation of others - St.Crysostom)
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To: jo kus
It's more than a symbol (i.e. baptism). God works THROUGH this visible symbol. Otherwise, at what point are we made children of God?

When we believe.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Christ Himself corrects Nicodemus' idea that salvation has anything to do with the fleshy birth ...

Correct.

Jesus makes it clear to Nicodemus that the new birth is ... spiritual in nature (i.e. of the Spirit).

John said that John (the Baptist) baptized with water, but Jesus' baptism ... was of the Spirit.
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

___________________________________________________________

Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

___________________________________________________________

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh,
the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

___________________________________________________________

John 1:33
And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

8,164 posted on 06/08/2006 8:54:39 AM PDT by Quester
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