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To: kosta50; jo kus
You see, FK, you are not consistent when you say that God lets us only sin. Freedom is going whichever way you choose. We can't take credit for the evil we choose, but not take credit for choosing God. Our fallen nature chooses evil, but God gave us spirit and reason that can overcome our nature.

Well, I have "admitted" to Joe recently that I think that since we can choose TO sin, that it follows that we can also choose NOT TO sin. That's something. :) However, since I think that our fallen nature IS sin, it does not follow to me that we can take credit for the good we do, because it cannot come from us. (The sinning part is "normal" for us so we do take "credit" for that.) We cannot overcome our nature with our gifts at birth. Sure, we are all not born as homicidal maniacs so God did give us "something", but I think it takes something more from God in order to be saved, grace that comes from God after we are born.

7,951 posted on 06/06/2006 8:26:44 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus; kosta50; annalex; HarleyD; All

"The sinning part is "normal" for us so we do take "credit" for that..."

Typical, predictable, even nearly inevitable it may be. But normal it is not. Natural it is not. (I did see the quotation marks you put around the word!)



7,965 posted on 06/06/2006 10:57:21 PM PDT by Agrarian
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To: Forest Keeper
However, since I think that our fallen nature IS sin...

Our fallen nature is not sin, FK; it is a consequence of sin, a defect that is inherited through generations.

...it does not follow to me that we can take credit for the good we do

Of course not! All goodness comes from God. When we do something good, give it to God. When people thank us, accept in the name of God.

7,970 posted on 06/07/2006 2:11:07 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper
Well, I have "admitted" to Joe recently that I think that since we can choose TO sin, that it follows that we can also choose NOT TO sin. That's something. :) However, since I think that our fallen nature IS sin, it does not follow to me that we can take credit for the good we do, because it cannot come from us. (The sinning part is "normal" for us so we do take "credit" for that.) I agree with what you wrote here. We cannot take credit for ANYTHING we do, as if we did it ALONE. Christ Himself said we can do NOTHING good without Him. St. Augustine made it clear and emphasized NOTHING. Not just a little. NOTHING! Thus, everything of good within us, natural or supernatural, comes from God and is moved by God. However, so as not to overemphasize this side of the coin, we ALSO realize that God EXPECTS us to use the gifts we have been given, which includes His gifts that moves our wills (but not infallibly - we can ALWAYS choose to ignore God). If we do not respond (which God enables us to do), then WE will be judged accordingly.

We cannot overcome our nature with our gifts at birth.

Again, yes, this is the doctrine of original sin. For a change, I agree with everything you wrote :)

Regards

7,995 posted on 06/07/2006 6:07:40 AM PDT by jo kus (There is nothing colder than a Christian who doesn't care for the salvation of others - St.Crysostom)
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