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To: HarleyD; Kolokotronis; jo kus; kosta50
Joh 10:14-15

As others already noted, nothing in that excludes the possibility of falling to sin through one's own fault and therefore losing salvation. Not merely is it not stated, but if we were to impute such subtext in the Good Shepherd passage in John 10 we would break the metaphore carefully constructed by Christ.

I don't know if any of you ever raised sheep. No, I did not either, but this is what Christ is referring to. Shepherds would have a corral into which they would herd their sheep for the night, in order to protect them from predators and thieves. It had a single entrance, buit typically no gate. Instead a shepherd would lie down across the entrance and that way serve himself as a gate. Hence "I am the gate". Now, it would sometimes happen that several herds share the same corral, for example, near a marketplace. The shepherds would then have the task of separating their sheep from someone else's. In order to do so thay would trend their sheep to respond to a particular call. In the morning they would take turns calling their sheep, who would "know their master's voice" and come out of the corral.

There are two scenarios how a sheep may be "snatched": a predator or a thief may catch it, but the shepherd at the gate would prevent that; or a sheep may respond to the wrong shepherd and get out into the wrong shepherd's possession, but those who know their masters voice would not do that. But there is nothing in that system that prevents a loss of a sheep that mistakes a wrongdoer for its master, which is exactly analogous to sin committed by a free will.

7,837 posted on 06/05/2006 9:29:17 PM PDT by annalex
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To: HarleyD; Kolokotronis; jo kus; kosta50

thay would trend -> they would train

Momentarily, I slipped into my sheepherder patois.


7,839 posted on 06/05/2006 9:53:31 PM PDT by annalex
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To: annalex

"I don't know if any of you ever raised sheep. No, I did not either..."

Yes, I can tell. Of course, perhaps the sheep business was different in the Near East than it is out here in the Wild West, with our rather large sheep ranches. :-)

Seriously, I've often wondered just whence the evidence comes for these authoritative treatises on sheep-raising that I've read or heard sermonized by urban clergy over the years...

And don't *even* get me started about the gross inaccuracies of Brokeback Mountain...

Sorry, I was just having an agrarian moment...


7,842 posted on 06/05/2006 11:39:38 PM PDT by Agrarian
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To: annalex
There are two scenarios how a sheep may be "snatched": a predator or a thief may catch it, but the shepherd at the gate would prevent that; or a sheep may respond to the wrong shepherd and get out into the wrong shepherd's possession, but those who know their masters voice would not do that. But there is nothing in that system that prevents a loss of a sheep that mistakes a wrongdoer for its master, which is exactly analogous to sin committed by a free will.

Good point. I had not thought of it that way.

Regards

7,860 posted on 06/06/2006 5:41:58 AM PDT by jo kus (There is nothing colder than a Christian who doesn't care for the salvation of others - St.Crysostom)
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