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To: kosta50; Dr. Eckleburg; fortheDeclaration; Forest Keeper; jo kus; HarleyD; George W. Bush; ...
"The easiest thing to do is to say "Lord, Lord""

I agree and many will do that on the last day because that is what their church says, that mantra or other repetitious phrases and attendance at the mass, confession and communion are all that is required and they will hear the "I never knew you" because what is required is a personal experience of trusting Christ alone for salvation.

The priesthood of all believers is a messy doctrine like democracy or trying to herd cats and yet all true believers are united on the central point of salvation, that we are saved by grace through faith in the finished work of Jesus and not because of or in addition to any works we have done. We separate on peripheral points that have nothing to do with the central point since the central point is revealed by the uniting person of the Holy Spirit.

The Orthodox and Roman Catholics have as much if not more diversity in their ranks but don't have the liberty to leave and form other sects of like minded people because their salvation is not bound solely in Jesus but tied to the church. You have not experienced the liberty from bondage given by the finished work of Jesus and made real to us by the ever present Holy Spirit, nor have you experienced the freedom from fear of the future. The church and its doctrine keep you in a state of high anxiety concerning your eternal destiny so that instead of resting in what Jesus has done you have to work and hope what you have accomplished will be enough to earn you a place at the table. Your problem is you haven't learned the difference between working out your salvation out of love and gratitude and earning your salvation. One places the value on the gift the other places the value on the work.
7,672 posted on 06/03/2006 7:51:29 AM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan; kosta50; Dr. Eckleburg; fortheDeclaration; Forest Keeper; jo kus; HarleyD; ...

"The Orthodox and Roman Catholics have as much if not more diversity in their ranks but don't have the liberty to leave and form other sects of like minded people because their salvation is not bound solely in Jesus but tied to the church."

We do? There is very little theological "diversity" within Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism on matters of dogmatic belief. In fact, there is "none". Those who don't want to believe what The Church teaches are certainly free to leave. That's where you Protestants came from, BD.

"...because their salvation is not bound solely in Jesus but tied to the church."

Interesting comment BD. It displays one of the fundamental tenets of Protestantism, I suppose, and demonstrates how Protestantism rejected 1500 years of Christian teaching in its mania to break with Rome. I suppose its possible that the reformers were ignorant of the writings of +Ignatius of Antioch (100 AD or so. +Ignatius was the second successor of +Peter as bishop of Antioch and was a disciple and friend of of +John. Some writings say he was the child called to sit on Christ's lap. At any rate, in his letter to the Smyrneans he wrote:

"You must all follow the lead of the bishop, as Jesus Christ followed that of the Father; follow the presbytery as you would the Apostles; reverence the deacons as you would God's commandment. Let no one do anything touching the Church, apart from the bishop. Let that celebration of the Eucharist be considered valid which is held under the bishop or anyone to whom he has committed it. Where the bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic (universal) Church. It is not permitted without authorization from the bishop either to baptize or to hold an agape; but whatever he approves is also pleasing to God. Thus everything you do will be proof against danger and valid."

You see, BD, making a distinction, for us humans and for our salvation, between The Church, being the bishop surrounded by his clergy and laity centered on the Eucharist, and all of us centered on Christ, is a false distinction, or so The Church has taught since the beginning. Now Protestantism may well hold that +Ignatius didn't know what he was talking about. The evidence would sem to point otherwise however. So if +Ignatius did know what he was talking about because he learned it from +Peter and +John, then it would seem that those "reformers" who set put to destroy The Church with heresy were wrong. Here one might well ask why they would do such a thing. The easy answer may be that the medieval Rome Church had itself fallen into such apostasy that reform was divinely ordained, but then got out of control. If we accept that, then why did it get out of control? Personally, I think the answer is pretty simple:

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." +John Chrysostomos.


7,678 posted on 06/03/2006 8:36:35 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: blue-duncan; annalex; Kolokotronis; Agrarian; Dr. Eckleburg; fortheDeclaration; Forest Keeper; ...
Your problem is you haven't learned the difference between working out your salvation out of love and gratitude and earning your salvation

You flatter yourself as much as you judge others. No, we don't believe we earn our salvation. Whatever is guiding you to "earn" your salvation is probably not from God.

7,679 posted on 06/03/2006 8:42:34 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: blue-duncan; kosta50; Dr. Eckleburg; fortheDeclaration; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; George W. Bush
I agree and many will do that [to say "Lord, Lord] on the last day because that is what their church says, that mantra or other repetitious phrases and attendance at the mass, confession and communion are all that is required and they will hear the "I never knew you" because what is required is a personal experience of trusting Christ alone for salvation.

Very true and good points. Just showing up for Mass will not guarantee a spot in heaven.

we are saved by grace through faith in the finished work of Jesus and not because of or in addition to any works we have done.

As long as you qualify "faith" as James does, who says that faith without works is dead. Thus, without works, you won't be saved.

You have not experienced the liberty from bondage given by the finished work of Jesus and made real to us by the ever present Holy Spirit, nor have you experienced the freedom from fear of the future.

I personally don't feel any bondage by going to Mass or praising God in a liturgical setting. Kosta? We lift up our hearts, as God has asked, as a community of believers as we break the bread. As to fear of the future, it doesn't follow that because we "work out our salvation in fear and trembling", that we live in fear. Does Paul strike you as someone fearful of not achieving his goal? No. But he didn't take it for granted, either. Considering the impetus that operates within us, we only have ourselves to blame if we fail. We can trust in the Lord's support. But this requires we persevere until the end. This is not difficult for those who love.

Regards

7,717 posted on 06/04/2006 8:36:00 AM PDT by jo kus (There is nothing colder than a Christian who doesn't care for the salvation of others - St.Crysostom)
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To: blue-duncan
all true believers are united on the central point of salvation, that we are saved by grace through faith in the finished work of Jesus and not because of or in addition to any works we have done

Says which gospel? Every gospel I know, every letter of Paul, teach otherwise.

7,802 posted on 06/05/2006 2:32:16 PM PDT by annalex
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