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To: jo kus; Dr. Eckleburg
James 2 says that Abraham was justified during the sacrifice of Isaac.

He is justified, but not before God, but before other man, becoming a great hero of faith in history.

The quote regarding his righteousness is from Gen.15:6, and thus, Abraham showed the righteousness that had been imputed to him in Gen.15:6.

Still nothing on Lot?

Peter calls him 'righteous' and 'Just'. If it weren't for the NT, we would never think he was a saved man by his works

The Angel at Abraham said "NOW I SEE..." Faith without works is dead. What more can I say? You continue to ignore the fact that the Bible doesn't reward people for being justified in the eyes of man. Scofield and the rest of Protestant eigesis is flat-out wrong. We are justified in God's eyes. HE is the one who saw Abraham's sacrifice and considered Abraham righteous during that ACT of FAITH. Man didn't see Abraham's sacrifice! Just as God desires to SEE Abraham's faith, God desires to see our faith by works of love. Loveless faith cannot save.

That Angel was God Himself, so He always knew what Abraham would do.

Unless you are denying God's Omniscience?

It is a figure of speech, that relates the event to God's appreciation of it.

As for 'seeing' it, well, Angels certainly saw it and Peter says that we are observed by angels who want to learn of our great salvation (1Pe.1:12)

Mankind certainly learned of it as well.

Now,as for the statement, 'God desires to see our faith', that is correct, but that has nothing to do with our salvation, that has to do with our growth, which glorifies God.

Works have nothing to do with getting saved, or even staying saved,(Acts.15), they only are a result of being saved.

7,611 posted on 06/02/2006 11:21:31 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth? (Gal.4:16))
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To: fortheDeclaration
He is justified, but not before God, but before other man, becoming a great hero of faith in history.

Again, I am telling you no one was there to witness Abraham being justified in front of man. The angel said "NOW I KNOW", not "NOW MAN KNOW'S". How many times do I need to repeat this? The purpose of the testing was not for other men to see how righteous Abraham was! Abraham was justified in front of God as a result of what he did in faith.

Still nothing on Lot? Peter calls him 'righteous' and 'Just'. If it weren't for the NT, we would never think he was a saved man by his works

Ah, now I finally understand what the heck you are asking me, I think...Peter is thinking of Lot during a different time in Lot's life, obviously not the time he was drunk... Your confusion is centered on the fact that you think justification is a one-time event. It's not. It is an ongoing process, just like it was for Abraham.

That Angel was God Himself, so He always knew what Abraham would do.

Of course God knew what Abraham was going to do. But Abraham still must execute it. God allows ALL of us to wrestle in faith with decisions whether to please God or not. He already knows when we will pass or fail. But He doesn't prevent us from executing our free will just the same. And when we pass the test, then WE know and grow ourselves in sanctification.

Mankind certainly learned of it as well.

From Sacred Scriptures. I wonder how willing people would be to believe that Abraham was going to sacrifice his son to "God" - whom no one else had yet seen do any miraculous things or even speak to them. I think this is another part of faith that Abraham had to endure that is overlooked, much like Noah.

Works have nothing to do with getting saved, or even staying saved,(Acts.15), they only are a result of being saved.

I will disagree, no matter how many times you repeat it without proof. The Bible clearly disagrees and you can't explain those verses away.

Regards

7,622 posted on 06/02/2006 3:34:16 PM PDT by jo kus (There is nothing colder than a Christian who doesn't care for the salvation of others - St.Crysostom)
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To: fortheDeclaration; HarleyD; Forest Keeper
Works have nothing to do with getting saved, or even staying saved,(Acts.15), they only are a result of being saved.

Amen!

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." -- Titus 3:5-7


7,632 posted on 06/02/2006 6:12:54 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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