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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50
Ah, FK, you need more +Gregory Palamas.

Thanks for the quotes. With only a couple of bumps and bruises, I really saw myself getting through both quotes pretty much OK. :)

In the first one, the most interesting thing was the description of theosis being wholly compatible with my idea of salvation. I really liked that and was "yupping" all the way through. :) The second most interesting thing was the phrase "Thus when the soul renounces its attachment to inferior things and cleaves through love to God ...". I have no idea whether it was intentional, but this exact wording actually allows a person like me to fully agree. The focus is not on the "how" (which is where I think there would be disagreement) but rather on the actual thing that is happening. Since I agree that this happens, I can participate here.

The second quote is similar and I think I can agree in principle to it with one hitch: "He who is frightened of this death and has preserved himself from it ...". I think there could be some wiggle room here, but it just struck me as something possibly intended to convey an accomplishment by man's self, rather than God through man. But maybe I'm reading too much into it. :) In any case, I felt reasonably receptive to both quotes.

7,604 posted on 06/02/2006 8:03:05 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50

" The second quote is similar and I think I can agree in principle to it with one hitch: "He who is frightened of this death and has preserved himself from it ...". I think there could be some wiggle room here, but it just struck me as something possibly intended to convey an accomplishment by man's self, rather than God through man. But maybe I'm reading too much into it. :) In any case, I felt reasonably receptive to both quotes."

None of us can preserve ourselve from spiritual death without grace. That's a given. Perhaps where the rub come for you, FK, is that your concepts of predestination are at odds with what Orthodoxy believes. We believe that God does not compel us, as was noted elsewhere. We do play a part in responding to God's grace, which as we know, falls equally on the good and the evil like rain on the earth. +Gregroy Palamas puts it this way:

"But we also know that the fulfillment of the commandments of God gives true knowledge, since it is through this that the soul gains health. How could a rational soul be healthy, if it is sick in its cognitive faculty? So we know that the commandments of God also grant knowledge, and not that alone, but deification also. This we possess in a perfect manner, through the Spirit, seeing in ourselves the glory of God, when it pleases God to lead us to spiritual mysteries."

So, you see, through grace we strive to fulfill the commandments and in their fulfillment, we "find" God. This is a process which gradually through the Holy Spirit transforms us. +Symeon the New Theologian, as I have quoted before but perhaps now you can understand it a bit better, taught:

"'Can a man take fire into his bosom, and his clothes not be burned?' (Prov. 6:27) says the wise Solomon. And I say: can he, who has in his heart the Divine fire of the Holy Spirit burning naked, not be set on fire, not shine and glitter and not take on the radiance of the Deity in the degree of his purification and penetration by fire? For penetration by fire follows upon purification of the heart, and again purification of the heart follows upon penetration by fire, that is, inasmuch as the heart is purified, so it receives Divine grace, and again inasmuch as it receives grace, so it is purified. When this is completed (that is, purification of heart and acquisition of grace have attained their fullness and perfection), through grace a man becomes wholly a god."


7,673 posted on 06/03/2006 8:04:45 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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