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To: kosta50; jo kus; HarleyD; George W. Bush; Agrarian; annalex; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; ...
FK: "Where does the Bible say that to be "alive in Christ" one must BE sinless?"

Mat 5:48

Here it is (KJV):

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Well that sounds simple enough, ... I suppose. :) But perhaps you are interpreting "perfect" here the same way you did with Job? If so, then we have a problem, because you posited before the possibility that Job was sinless, and one of the extremely RARE examples of that in the Bible. Therefore, either no one is alive in Christ, or all believers are just like Job, and are uniquely sinless. Neither of these seems possible. I'll just throw out another alternative and say that "perfect" does not mean sinless in either case. Instead it means that one is right with God and loves God, even given his human status of sinner; a mature believer. Such a person is alive in Christ.

Most of Protestantism is easy. You keep saying that we are supposed to be Christ-like, but I really wonder if you have any clue what that means?

I will agree that resting in God's promises is EASIER than having no security and never knowing where you're going to spend eternity. I think God likes it when we rest in His promises:

Matt. 11:28-30 : 28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

---------------

"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." (notice here the word "find it"; it should tell you that it was not decided before all ages).

It doesn't mean that, it just means that "few" will find it because only "few" are elected from before time.

Luther made it easy. That's why it spread like wild fire: no more fasts, no more confessions and, best of all, pecca fortiter (sin bodly), sin all you want...easy, just be yourself, you have been "elected" from before aeons, so "don't worry, be happy." What virtue! And all that made to look like theology.

Is this what you really, truly think? The Reformation spread because it stood for an out and out free for all in sin? LOL! Well, it took you seven and a half large in posts, but you finally figured us out. :)

[On infants not having the capacity to be like Christ or to "let sin reign"]...."Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." (Mat 18:3)

Here is the passage with the verses right before and after:

Matt. 18:2-4 : 2 He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3 And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Infants cannot humble themselves, nor can they be called or stand, at least at the time you would Baptize them. Jesus is talking about childlike faith, which infants cannot possess.

7,599 posted on 06/02/2006 6:06:45 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus; HarleyD; George W. Bush; Agrarian; annalex; blue-duncan
you posited before the possibility that Job was sinless, and one of the extremely RARE examples of that in the Bible

I was quoting the Bible (KJV). It says: that Job was a man who "was perfect [blameless] and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil."

Eschewing evil pretty much means being sinless. It's actually not that rare: the term "blameless" is also used for Noah (Gen 6:9), Abraham (Gen 17:1) and in Deut. 18:13 "Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God." So, it seems God expects us to be perfect, blameless and upright, eschewing evil. Contrast that with Luther's pecca fortiter...you get the picture.

Certainly you don't think that we can be alive in Christ if we are not sinless? And we are sinless when, through repentance, we ask for forgiveness of our sins and partake in the Eucharist. The idea is to be all you can be when it comes to sinlessness in the time God granted you. Do you know anyone who is?

I will agree that resting in God's promises is EASIER than having no security and never knowing where you're going to spend eternity

No, Protestantism is easy because it requires nothing of you other than "Lord, Lord..." Once you accept Christ as your Savior, you are "in" [talk about you deciding rather than God!] and from there on nothing you do will get you "out." Luther was clever. He knew that people disliked fasting, or their remorse over ingratitude to God, or the need for self-denial. Covering yourself with Christ is like shoving dirt under the rug. On the surface it looks clean, but underneath...that's another story. But it sure is easier to shove all that under the rug.

It is much more fun to go to Sunday bible reading sessions for a couple of hours, listening to the pastors' lip service about humility, giving to God, repentance, etc. but really having no obligation to follow any of that unless you personally agreed with the pastor, or anyone else for that matter.

And if all else failed, you can always start your own denomination! You don't like your church? Make a new one! To your liking. Thus, you can pick and choose the verses that fit your life style and beliefs, and you can add or abstract a little to make it just right. Not just easy; comfy too.

FK: It doesn't mean that, it just means that "few" will find it because only "few" are elected from before time

It doesn't say that at all. Your interpretation is using Pauline teachings. Christ makes no reference to the "elect," and the Gospels make no reference to +Paul, even though they were written after his Epistles were written.

Infants cannot humble themselves, nor can they be called or stand, at least at the time you would Baptize them. Jesus is talking about childlike faith, which infants cannot possess

You have a strange way of making things "fit" your theories. Christ said first "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

So, FK, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. :) And that goes for all of us.

However, unless we change and become like little children also implies that we can change and become like little children (sinless), blameless, upright, etc. which seems to conflict with your "before all ages" elect theory. If you are destined to go into heaven, why would you have to change? Or how could you?

7,620 posted on 06/02/2006 3:05:56 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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