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To: kosta50; jo kus; HarleyD; George W. Bush; blue-duncan; stripes1776; Kolokotronis; Agrarian; ...
There are many definitions of baptism in the NT, which is no small source of confusion. Baptism is, however, a remission of sins no matter how you look at it ...

OK, if I'm following you, then I think I completely agree. I have said that the practice of water Baptism has nothing to do with the remission of sins. However, at the point of belief, I say that the Spirit indwells. At THAT point we are Baptized in the Spirit (born again), which is solely a work of God. If this is one of the definitions of Biblical Baptism you are talking about, then I'm with you all the way. :)

So your repentance is no more a guarantee that God now accept you than the "empty" sacraments of the Apostolic Church because God is not subject to your intellectual acceptance (or rejection) of Him — God is the way He is whether we believe, disbelieve, know or don't know: ...

Well, I sort of see this as a 'yes' and 'no' type thing. From God's POV the elect were accepted before they were born, so God is not making any decisions as to what to do with us in real time, IMO. So, the only issue to me is when do the elect actually become aware that they are of the elect. This does not happen at Baptism, especially at infant Baptism. It happens at the point of true belief. At that time there is a Spiritual Baptism, which is ceremonially recreated in the water Baptism, later.

So in truth the guarantee doesn't happen at the point of belief and repentance, but the elect's knowledge of the guarantee already made becomes known to the elect at this time.

Obviously, faith in God is needed to make the petition [for acceptance] to God, but it does not mean that a soul being baptized must also believe and profess Gospel; only those making that petition. We can petition God to accept and have mercy on any soul, whether intellectually mature or mentally handicapped.

This sounds like you are likening this to praying for another's salvation, but I think it's very different. All the time, I will pray to God for so-and-so to come to accept Him. I still face the same three possible answers I do with almost any other prayer, 'yes', 'no', or 'wait'. However, with my understanding of how you see water Baptism, there is only one answer: 'Yes'. Therefore, it really isn't a petition at all, since the result is guaranteed. It is more of a "directive". (Yes, I understand that in your heart you do not presume to order God around, but in this context, isn't this the effective result?)

In scripture, the only times I am aware of where a 'Yes' is guaranteed concern personal prayers for oneself. If you genuinely say the sinner's prayer you will be saved, and if you genuinely pray for forgiveness you will be forgiven, that sort of thing. However, I cannot pray or petition for anything on behalf of anyone else and be guaranteed an answer that I like. If I am right, then petition by proxy fails as an automatic 'yes', which defeats the whole point of infant Baptism under your beliefs.

However, in your case, the Protestants place a precondition on God's ability to accept us, based on our intellectual maturity! Not only is God forced to wait for us to grow up, but is actually forced to wait for us to repent to give us a chance!

As I said above, God isn't forced to wait for a second. God has already accepted all of His elect from the foundation of the world, the only trick is when do they become aware of it. My understanding of the Reformed view is that this truth becomes knowable to the elect at the point of belief, not Baptism.

7,410 posted on 05/31/2006 6:08:16 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; HarleyD
From God's POV the elect were accepted before they were born, so God is not making any decisions as to what to do with us in real time, IMO. So, the only issue to me is when do the elect actually become aware that they are of the elect. This does not happen at Baptism, especially at infant Baptism. It happens at the point of true belief. At that time there is a Spiritual Baptism, which is ceremonially recreated in the water Baptism, later...So in truth the guarantee doesn't happen at the point of belief and repentance, but the elect's knowledge of the guarantee already made becomes known to the elect at this time.

Amen and well-said, FK.

To swipe Harley's great tag in the KJV...

"Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures -- Luke 24:45

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region." -- Acts 13:48-49

7,421 posted on 05/31/2006 10:03:42 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; jo kus; HarleyD; George W. Bush; blue-duncan; stripes1776; Agrarian

"So, the only issue to me is when do the elect actually become aware that they are of the elect. This does not happen at Baptism, especially at infant Baptism. It happens at the point of true belief."

Interesting observation. The Fathers spoke about this point here and there. Here's what +Diadochos of Photiki wrote in his "on Spiritual Knowledge, #77":

"From the instant we are baptized, grace is hidden in the depths of the intellect, concealing its presence even from the perception of the intellect itself. When someone begins, however, to love God with full resolve, then in a mysterious way, by means of intellectual perception, grace communicates something of its riches to his soul. Then, if he really wants to hold fast to this discovery, he joyfully starts longing to be rid of all his temporal goods, so as to acquire the field in which he has found the hidden treasure of life (cf. Matt. 13:44). This is because, when someone rids himself of all worldly riches, he discovers the place where the grace of God is hidden. For as the soul advances, divine grace more and more reveals itself to the intellect."


7,447 posted on 05/31/2006 2:32:25 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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