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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus; annalex; George W. Bush; Agrarian; Kolokotronis
I think you have said that Baptism is how people become "in Christ"

Baptism is a petition to God to elect the soul of the one being baptized into the Body of Christ (Church). If that soul has any sin, the Holy Spirit will cleanse at the adoption. In the case of children, they don't have to confess or repent because they do not know, and infants (as far as we Orthodox are cocnerned) have no sins. In the case of adults, confession and repentance is required.

The promise of that adoption applies to adults and children (cf Acts 2:37) equally.

But at the same time, Baptism is only good until the next mortal sin, at which point they are again "out of Christ"

You have stated this nonsense in the past. God does not change His mind. You can not be un-baptized. Once adopted, He will not disown you. But, that does not mean that you have a sure ticket to heaven if, at the end of your life, you say I "do it my way," if in your heart you are Forest Keeper and not Chirst-like.

The idea that "once saved" you can sin boldly, confident that — as God's elect — you cannot perish, is precisely where Satan's great deception becomes obvious.

Every time you sin, and we all sin all the time, you tarnish the likeness of God which God gave us.

So, what happens to the adult believer who is never baptized, but is very faithful about going to confession and is totally "covered" on that front?

A "spotless" believer who does not believe in Christ's own commandment (cf Mat 28:19) is hardly your perfect Christian.

how is this guy any different from someone who has been baptized?

The former is a sinner pretending to be a Christian.

Infant Baptism is precisely shoving grace down the throat of the infant!

Being accepted by God is shoving grace down someone's throat? God invites you to come to Him. One has to actually get up and walk in Christ's footsteps to get there. God won't beam you up, FK.

Baptism washes away any sins — if there are any sins — before being adopted into the Body of Christ. Baptism is the adoption. Remission of sins, if any, is a pre-condition for that adoption.

7,403 posted on 05/31/2006 4:05:25 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; jo kus; annalex; George W. Bush; Agrarian; Kolokotronis; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg
FK: "But at the same time, Baptism is only good until the next mortal sin, at which point they are again "out of Christ".

You have stated this nonsense in the past. God does not change His mind. You can not be un-baptized. Once adopted, He will not disown you. But, that does not mean that you have a sure ticket to heaven if, at the end of your life, you say I "do it my way," if in your heart you are Forest Keeper and not Chirst-like.

Then why are you confirming my nonsense as true? You say that Baptism is for the remission of sins, which must be done before one can go to heaven. But upon the next sin, that status is lost, but for a further work of man. According to you, God DOES send some of His adopted children, actual children of God (John 1:12), right to hell. But at the same time, you say this is not disowning them? This puts 100% of the power (and destiny of man) into his own hands. You said God doesn't disown, therefore, it is only man's free will decisions that determine eternal destiny. This just isn't Biblical.

The idea that "once saved" you can sin boldly, confident that — as God's elect — you cannot perish, is precisely where Satan's great deception becomes obvious.

That does sound like quite a deception, which is why I'm glad that I don't know anyone here who believes in that in the way you present it. Scripture does not say that we can go on sinning freely after salvation and everyone here knows it.

FK: "...how is this guy [someone who is in every way a Christian but has not been Baptized] any different from someone who has been baptized?"

The former is a sinner pretending to be a Christian.

So all the martyrs who were Baptized by blood at the end were all pretenders their whole lives?

7,587 posted on 06/01/2006 7:39:29 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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