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To: Kolokotronis
"I don't think agreeing to something without knowing the deeper meanings does much to help matters."

And I think that's a great rule, Jo

I am listening to the hockey game online and have finished 5 full pages of written notes on the Trinity and the West/East differences in their views. (Quite a diverse set of hobbies?) From my reading so far, esp. as sythesized by St. Augustine, the West see God's Divine Nature first, and subsequently looking at the Persons next; while the East looks at the Three Distinct Persons first, seeing God most especially in the Father. If this summary is correct, I can understand why the West and East have a lot of talking to do on this issue. However, I continue to think these are differences of views (Aristotle vs. Plato), not necessarily a "right" vs. "wrong". I am not convinced that Hesychastism is faithful to the fullest consensus of the Fathers, since God is simple, and not a distinct Energeia and Ousia. This seems to imply a demiurge. But I will continue to read. I can't believe that the Orthodox of the 1200-1500's have returned to Neo-Platonism so rudely condemned by St. Ireneaus. I must still be missing something.

Regards

7,392 posted on 05/30/2006 6:35:32 PM PDT by jo kus (There is nothing colder than a Christian who doesn't care for the salvation of others - St.Crysostom)
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To: jo kus

"...and not a distinct Energeia and Ousia."

NO, NO, NO! Energia is GOD, Ousia, ONE OUSIA, is God! Here's a link to another article; not exactly how I'd put it, but accurate after a fashion and perhaps worth the read:

"http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Energies%20of%20God"

In the meantime, Pelikan is a good read.


7,393 posted on 05/30/2006 6:44:26 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: jo kus; Kolokotronis

"However, I continue to think these are differences of views (Aristotle vs. Plato), not necessarily a "right" vs. "wrong"."

NO, NO, NO! :-) Orthodox theology is not Platonic or Neoplatonic, and as long as you continue to think that this is true (I don't blame you -- this has been the superficial analysis of Eastern theology by the West for centuries), JK, you are going to continue to say things like "... and not a distinct Energeia and Ousia. This seems to imply a demiurge."

There is *no* separation between the energia of God and the one ousia of God and the one nature of God and the thee hypostases/persons in which we know God. Again, you cannot separate out the ousia or nature or energia or hypostases and say that one is God and another is not.

In fact your statement that "God is simple" is perhaps the most Platonic statement of all that one can make. If there is one thing that Orthodoxy does *not* believe, it is that God is simple, or that He can be boiled down to a divine simplicity. That is Platonism -- that is "the One." The very fact that we start with the three Persons of the Trinity in all knowledge of God, and that we participate in his life in a multiplicity of His energies should demonstrate that God is not simple. Only by after the fact reflections on the fact that there is a single essence/ousia and a single divine nature does any kind of "simplicity" arise.

Now there *is* a Father who does teach a divine simplicity at the center of the Holy Trinity, and that is St. Augustine, and it is because of his Neoplatonic influences when it comes to his Trinitarian theology.


7,418 posted on 05/31/2006 9:35:11 AM PDT by Agrarian
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