Thank you for the verses on disinheritance. I think I see a theme. To me, for the most part these are perseverance verses. We all need instruction in both THAT we need to persevere, and HOW we can persevere (or what to avoid). These kinds of verses are great for that. God still guarantees that it will happen for the elect, but these teachings absolutely help those of the elect to choose to sin less. The elect want to please God, and these verses tell them how to do that.
And is THAT [point of belief] "saving faith", that minute you "take on the work of Christ"? I look on this as more preparation for the Spirit's fuller entrance into our lives during Baptism - where we become children of God and partakers of the Divine Nature. One must be born anew by the Spirit. God calls for a response of faith - Baptism.
To answer your question, I would say 'Yes', saving faith is manifested when we ask Jesus into our lives and hearts, we reckon sin, and acknowledge Him as Lord of our lives. --- I am a little confused as to how you can see the point of belief as being in preparation for baptism, when I thought that 99% of Catholic baptisms are as infants, before belief. However, if you are speaking of adult baptism, then do you see baptism as really being more important than belief itself?
Christ's death is called Redemption. It is enough and efficacious for each and every man ever created. However, it is NOT APPLIED to each and every man. This is where faith and baptism come into play. When we respond to God's gracious gifts, we receive the effects that God has promised to those who turn to Him (I hope you realize that we are not turning by our own power!)
Concerning adults, I have been under the impression that what I think happens at belief, you think happens at baptism. But with the above, I am not as sure. For an adult who has never been baptized, what happens at belief vs. baptism? I would say that baptism is an obedience to God, and an observance of the "everything" that happened at belief.
The elect want to please God, and these verses tell them how to do that.
To what purpose? And HOW does a man please God, if God does EVERYTHING? Sounds like God is pleasing Himself through His puppet manipulation.
I am a little confused as to how you can see the point of belief as being in preparation for baptism, when I thought that 99% of Catholic baptisms are as infants, before belief. However, if you are speaking of adult baptism, then do you see baptism as really being more important than belief itself?
I am speaking about Baptism for adults, whether Catholic or Protestant. For infants, God's grace enters the child and acts as a seed. What difference does it make whether faith enters a person as a child or an adult? Don't you believe that faith comes from God, not man?
For an adult who has never been baptized, what happens at belief vs. baptism? I would say that baptism is an obedience to God, and an observance of the "everything" that happened at belief.
The Acts of the Apostles tells us that Baptism is necessary for the forgiveness of sins. In every case, when a person had not been baptized, and yet believed, the person was baptized so that that person could more fully receive the Spirit. It was afterwards that the believer received the gifts of Tongues or Prophesy. Also, sins were forgiven at that point, since in every case, baptism is that point where sins are remitted. Is there a verse that talks about sins being remitted BEFORE baptism? The Spirit comes and prepares the adult by faith - but this is only one step leading to the acceptance of Baptism. It is not merely a formality.
Regards
[a] Confession/repentance; [b] adoption/election/justification.
The promise of baptism (adoption) applies to adults as it does to children, all of whom (the baptized) will be called by God:
It is almost unbeleveable that the Protestants would claim that the early Church, closest to the Apostles, would practice something the Apostles would disapprove of.