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To: jo kus
God desires deeply a loving response to His initiatives. Thus, the result is the possibility of rejection! That is the chance we (and God) takes in Love.

Alright, let's say for the sake of argument that God wants all men to be saved, and that God will not overpower our free will. How can both be accomplished, given God's abilities? It's very simple. Virtually every human is able to do a mental pro/con list about almost anything, right? In the raw truth of truth, such a pro/con list between eternal heaven or hell would be fairly lopsided, I would think. :) Any conscious person could look at that list and would make a completely free will decision for Christ. The only thing any person needs is THAT LIST.

Now, God of course has it within His full power to grant that list to every man. He would not be impeding free will at all, He would just be conveying information for free. And yet for some reason, God does not do that. Why not? Free will is NOT the price for all men to have the information necessary for a no-brainer decision. And yet it still doesn't happen. This is one reason I do not think God literally wants all men to be saved.

On the other hand, if God DOESN'T use this foreknowledge, does God randomly choose men to elect? Who can say...

Good question yourself. :) My take is that from our POV it sure can appear to look random, but from God's POV, He picks His elect before He makes them, so it can't be random. He says: "I'm going to make Frank, and he is going to be of the elect. I'm going to give him these qualities and this amount of grace to ensure that he will turn to me." OTOH, my beliefs are also that God will say at other times: "Now I'm going to make Ted, and he is not going to be of the elect. I'm going to use him in the course of my Divine Plan for my purposes, but he is not going to wind up in heaven". (I've got to admit the tough ones when they come up. :)

Once baptized or once we realize that we are obeying the commandments, we can know we have been predestined for grace - but this doesn't mean we are predestined for eternal glory ...

I'm not sure how you are using "predestined for grace". This supposes that there are those who are not predestined for grace, and I thought everyone was given "enough" grace. I must be misunderstanding.

7,323 posted on 05/30/2006 1:41:31 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
Virtually every human is able to do a mental pro/con list about almost anything, right? In the raw truth of truth, such a pro/con list between eternal heaven or hell would be fairly lopsided, I would think. :) Any conscious person could look at that list and would make a completely free will decision for Christ. The only thing any person needs is THAT LIST.

In the raw truth, there is no absolute proof that heaven and hell exists, thus any list is based on the faith in the evidence of its existence. In today's day and age, another problem is WHICH religion is correct? Many purport to be the 'correct' way to God. Any such list is based on "now" vs "later". Many, including US, choose the here and now and forgo the rewards in heaven - by sinning.

This is one reason I do not think God literally wants all men to be saved.

God wants all men to be saved, on the condition that they WANT to be saved, to be loved and to love, to give of themselves. Some do not want to give of themselves to others.

He picks His elect before He makes them, so it can't be random

How does God do anything "before" anything when He is outside of time?

I'm not sure how you are using "predestined for grace". This supposes that there are those who are not predestined for grace, and I thought everyone was given "enough" grace

Grace to enter the Church.

Regards

7,330 posted on 05/30/2006 5:59:38 AM PDT by jo kus (There is nothing colder than a Christian who doesn't care for the salvation of others (St.Crysostom))
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