A person is not formally Christian if he is not baptized, ESPECIALLY if he is aware of it! This person is rejecting what is clearly in Sacred Scriptures - that baptism remits sins and brings us into contact with the Paschal Mystery of Christ's Redemptive Work. Of course, I do not judge what God will do with such people. But one wonders why they are not baptized...
Do you think God makes that many exceptions, or are most of them lost BECAUSE their sins were never remitted through a proxy baptism?
I don't know if there is a proxy baptism for an adult. That is reserved for infants, although Paul talks about baptism for the dead in 1 Corinthians. Not sure what he means except applying Christ's work to the already dead. I don't think Christianity has accepted this as doctrine, although there it is...
BTW, what church was John the Baptist a part of when he did his baptisms? How does the Church now get credit for effecting the work of Jesus on the cross? How could JTB effect work that hadn't been done yet?
The same Church that believing and faithful Jews of the OT and Christians of the NT and subsequent later Christians are part of. There always has been only one Church, when broadly defined as the People of God. This Church is catholic (not Roman!) in that it is universal. The Jews were the visible manifestation of this in the OT, and the Catholic Church is the visible manifestation of it now - although there are many sheep outside its visible doors.
Except this rarely happens in practice, right? In normal practice there is no believer, there is no faith, and there is no "taking" into the heart. These are supplied on the side, and are wholly apart from the baptizee. It seems an odd situation for something so important to take place.
That's where we have Confirmation, which is normally a teenager "confirming" the sacrament of Baptism under his own volitional desires. The graces received are strengthened, but no new mark is placed on the Christian.
And by "personally saved", you mean unto that person is no longer saved.
Not sure what that means...
Regards
If this is so, then what is the definition of being a "formal Christian"? Are baptized infants in this group? If 'yes', then there are many formal Christians who are not believers, and many believers who are not formal Christians. Is this right?
I don't know if there is a proxy baptism for an adult. That is reserved for infants, although Paul talks about baptism for the dead in 1 Corinthians. Not sure what he means except applying Christ's work to the already dead.
From what I could find, baptism of the dead is a Mormon practice, and they use 1 Cor. 15:29 as proof. One refutation is that Paul was referring to a nearby Pagan practice to make the completely separate point that the resurrection was real. Here is an excerpt from a one-pager called What is Baptism for the Dead Mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:29? Good title :) :
"Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?" (1 Cor. 15:29, NASB).
"Numerous explanations have been offered for this verse ranging from the inane to the sophisticated. Mormonism, in particular, has claimed that this verse supports their view of baptism for the dead. In their practice, individuals go to their local Mormon temple, dress appropriately for a baptism, representatively adopt the name of a person who has died, and then the Mormon is baptized in water for that deceased person. This way, the dead person has fulfilled the requirements of salvation in the afterworld and can enjoy further spiritual benefits in the spiritual realm."
"But, the Mormons are incorrect. They have usurped this verse and taken it out of context. So, let's examine 1 Cor. 15 briefly so we can see what Paul is talking about when he mentions baptism for the dead."
"In Verses 1-19, the fact of Christ's resurrection is detailed by Paul. Beginning in verse 20 and going through verse 23, Paul speaks about the order of the resurrection. Christ is the first one raised -- in a glorified body -- and then who are His at His return. Next, verses 24 - 29 mention Christ's reign and the abolition of death. This is when this controversial verse occurs: "Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?"
"Just north of Corinth was a city named Eleusis. This was the location of a pagan religion where baptism in the sea was practiced to guarantee a good afterlife. This religion was mention by Homer in Hymn to Demeter 478-79.2 The Corinthians were known to be heavily influenced by other customs. After all, they were in a large economic area where a great many different people frequented. It is probable that the Corinthians were being influenced by the religious practices found at Eleusis where baptism for the dead was practiced."
"Paul used this example from the pagans in 1 Cor. 15:29, when he said, "...if the dead are not raised, then why are they baptized for the dead?" Paul did not say we. This is significant because the Christian church was not practicing baptism for the dead, but the pagans were."
"Paul's point was simple. The resurrection is a reality. It is going to happen when Jesus returns. Even the pagans believe in the resurrection, otherwise, why would they baptize for the dead?"
---------------
FK: "BTW, what church was John the Baptist a part of when he did his baptisms? How does the Church now get credit for effecting the work of Jesus on the cross? How could JTB effect work that hadn't been done yet?"
The same Church that believing and faithful Jews of the OT and Christians of the NT and subsequent later Christians are part of. There always has been only one Church, when broadly defined as the People of God. ...
I can certainly agree to that, but what I was asking about is that I thought you said that baptism activates the previously inactive work of Christ on the cross (my paraphrase). Since John the Baptist did 100% of his baptisms before Christ did any work on the cross, what were they good for?
FK: "And by "personally saved", you mean unto that person is no longer saved."
Not sure what that means...
I just noted the word "saved" (incorporating the normal use of the past tense) and wanted to point out that this is really only a temporary condition in Catholicism. One is "saved" only until he is not "saved", there is no permanency.