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To: jo kus
Remember that Paul wrote to CHRISTIANS that they could be DISINHERITED from their inheritance that was set aside in heaven.

I couldn't find it easily. Could you give me the verse?

So at what point does a person take on the Work of Christ and apply it to his own personal situation? Or do you say all men are saved - since Christ DIED for all men?

A person takes on the Work of Christ from his POV at the point of belief. From God's POV, he always had it. I do not say that all men are saved because Christ did not die for all men, He died for all men of the elect.

A person can also be "baptized by desire" or "Baptized by blood". Catechumens, those who have not been baptized by who are beginning to come to the faith through our RCIA program are bound for heaven if they died before the actual ritual.

OK, that helps, thanks. What is "Baptized by blood"? I mean, I think that our sins are remitted by the blood of Christ, as it says in the Bible (Col. 1:14 and Eph. 1:7) Does the Bible speak of the two-step method as applied by the Church, or of these other methods you mention.

7,212 posted on 05/25/2006 9:44:11 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus

In response to those who pointed that some of the martyrs had never been baptized (often a soldier standing by as someone was being tortured and martyred for the faith would be so moved that he would loudly proclaim himself to be a Christian, and be martyred immediately himself), there arose a phrase that said that these martyrs had been "baptized in blood," rather than in water.

Orthodoxy tends not to be as much into defining things out like that. We would, I think, simply say that there are unquestionably those who are saved who have not been baptized in water in the name of the Trinity. How this exactly is, other than through God's mercy, we tend not to define. We certainly do not feel a need to show that thus and such a person was "really" baptized, even though he wasn't -- just to keep rigidly consistent the idea that one must be baptized to be saved.


7,214 posted on 05/25/2006 9:53:08 PM PDT by Agrarian
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To: Forest Keeper
I couldn't find it [CHRISTIANS that they could be DISINHERITED] easily. Could you give me the verse?

Here are a few examples, there are several dozen others...

"Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, *goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off." Rom 11:20-23

"Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." 1 Cor 9:24-27

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Cor 6:9-10

"Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain." 1 Cor 15:1-2

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." Heb 10:26-27

These are just SOME from Paul, many others from Jesus and other writers of the NT. And of course, the OT is rife with the wicked not inheriting the "Kingdom".

A person takes on the Work of Christ from his POV at the point of belief.

And is THAT "saving faith", that minute you "take on the work of Christ"? I look on this as more preparation for the Spirit's fuller entrance into our lives during Baptism - where we become children of God and partakers of the Divine Nature. One must be born anew by the Spirit. God calls for a response of faith - Baptism.

What is "Baptized by blood"?

a martyr is considered baptized when he dies for the faith willingly, even if he was merely prepared by the Spirit and not formally baptized. The Spirit enters into the martyr in a way that achieves the effect of baptism to the non-martyr.

I mean, I think that our sins are remitted by the blood of Christ, as it says in the Bible

They are! Baptism and the Cross are united together. What did Paul say to the Romans:

"Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin." Romans 6:2-6

Through our baptism, we are buried with Christ, united with the Passion and its effects. As a result, we have "died" to sin and now can partake in the glory of God, even now, although incompletely.

Does the Bible speak of the two-step method as applied by the Church, or of these other methods you mention.

It is not a two step process. Christ's death is called Redemption. It is enough and efficacious for each and every man ever created. However, it is NOT APPLIED to each and every man. This is where faith and baptism come into play. When we respond to God's gracious gifts, we receive the effects that God has promised to those who turn to Him (I hope you realize that we are not turning by our own power!)

If it helps, think of Christ's Work as liquid soap stored in a great big vat. It is available for free to anyone who wants to wash themselves. All you have to do is go to the spigot and draw some out. If you don't draw some out, you won't get cleaned...

Regards

7,226 posted on 05/26/2006 6:36:40 AM PDT by jo kus (For love is of God; and everyone that loves is born of God, and knows God. 1Jn 4:7)
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