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To: jo kus; kosta50; annalex; Agrarian
FK: "I was specifically thinking in the area of discernment. Since I do not agree patently with everything that Calvin and Luther said, I cannot say that their gifts of discernment were better on every issue than "all Protestants".

I think you are confusing a gift of the Holy Spirit, discernment, with a human ability, say, knowledge and ability to read foreign languages. The two are NOT the same thing.

I agree with you that they are not the same thing. But does this mean you are saying that God might grace people differently on whether they are any good at reading foreign languages, but that God graces everyone equally with things like discernment? If so, that doesn't make sense to me. If that's true then what do bishops have that we don't have? :)

One of the "requirements" of being considered a "Church Father" was holiness. Holiness not only from the level of their writings, but in their actions. This made their writings more authoritative.

Well, since we know that even many Fathers had problems with the consensus, is holiness something that comes and goes? And assuming you say "yes", then this holiness is really only recognized through the voting process, at any particular time, right?

7,153 posted on 05/25/2006 6:14:22 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; Agrarian; kosta50; Bohemund; Dr. Eckleburg; jo kus; HarleyD; annalex

"One of the "requirements" of being considered a "Church Father" was holiness"

Holiness, are we all in agreement as to the definition of the term? Can we define it or is it like Justice Stewart's definition, " . . . I know it [obscenity/pornography] when I see it."


7,154 posted on 05/25/2006 7:03:35 AM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: Forest Keeper; annalex; Agrarian
But does this mean you are saying that God might grace people differently on whether they are any good at reading foreign languages, but that God graces everyone equally with things like discernment? If so, that doesn't make sense to me. If that's true then what do bishops have that we don't have? :)

We Catholics believe that God works similiarly on the natural and supernatural plane. This goes back to our concept of Sacramentalism. If you want to understand Catholicism, you must understand this term. It means that God works invisibly through the visible creation. Thus, when God directed the Apostles to baptize, they used WATER, not mud or wine. When a person SEES a baptism, it is supposed to call to mind, through a visible action, what God is doing in the spiritual realm - cleansing someone in this case.

With this in mind, FK, God works at giving spiritual AND natural gifts on different levels to different people. Thus, some people, He makes naturally smart - but perhaps, their spiritual knowledge of God is lacking. To some, He gives certain spiritual gifts, to others, He doesn't - just as in the natural world.

What do the bishops have that we don't have? God has place people in authority over other men. Whether this is in the secular world or in the spiritual, we are called by God to obey them. Remember what Christ said to Pilate? "You wouldn't have any authority over me unless give from Above"? Thus, the Bishops claim to have been given this authority, the power to bind and loosen. As to discernment, this would vary.

Well, since we know that even many Fathers had problems with the consensus, is holiness something that comes and goes? And assuming you say "yes", then this holiness is really only recognized through the voting process, at any particular time, right?

Holiness and knowledge are not necessarily related. You think that the holier one is, the more knowledgeable they become. On the intellectual plane, this is false. Holiness has very little to do with intellectual knowledge - and as Paul says to the Corinthians, it PUFFS UP! We grow in EXPERIENTIAL knowledge of God - but not necessarily being better able to describe the Trinity. Certainly, you are aware of people who appear quite holy to you - do you think they could fully explain the Trinity do to their "experiential" knowledge of Christ's Abiding Presence within them? God doesn't impart this type of knowledge to everyone. The knowledge He gives us is the Knowledge of our sharing in the Divine Nature, that communion of Love that exists between the Father and the Son.

Regards

7,157 posted on 05/25/2006 7:36:27 AM PDT by jo kus (For love is of God; and everyone that loves is born of God, and knows God. 1Jn 4:7)
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