[George W. Bush]

God saw to it that Mary wouldn't refuse by preparing her, even in the womb, for her role in salvation history. God certainly foresaw Mary's "yes".

Uh-oh, you're getting a little close to Calvin there. The biblical accounts are true that God prepared certain individuals from the womb for their roles, that they were predestined to them. And yet, those individuals each chose of their own free will to love God, to serve Him and often to sacrifice their lives for Him. One sees this with John the Baptist and others. And it is just as true that God's plan requires that many who shall be saved will not come to Him for many years, some even in old age.

So Mary must possess complete free will for Christ to be fully human? How so? Not that I am saying Mary did not have free will! But I am intrigued on how you came up with that conclusion.

Free will is an essential part of every human being and even for angels. It was an essential feature of Mary. And of Jesus himself as He accepted His role as Christ.

The Father is not interested in robots, it seems. We Calvinist types like to say that man's free will is not violated by God's unalterable and unfolding plan of creation. And man's free will does not diminish God's free will. It is merely that man's free will in this matter of predestination is fully enfolded in God's free will and his plan for the salvation of those He adopted as His children from the foundation of the world.

Diminishing Jesus from being fully a man is a well-known root of heresy from ancient times, as you Orthodox know well from the church fathers. Naturally, the full outworking of Jesus Christ's dual nature can never be fully known to us and we should be cautious in our speculation about something that cannot be fully known to us but scripture is very clear on this point.

Without full free will, neither Mary nor Jesus could be what scripture says they are.

[jo kus]

Uh-oh, you're getting a little close to Calvin there. The biblical accounts are true that God prepared certain individuals from the womb for their roles, that they were predestined to them. And yet, those individuals each chose of their own free will to love God, to serve Him and often to sacrifice their lives for Him. One sees this with John the Baptist and others. And it is just as true that God's plan requires that many who shall be saved will not come to Him for many years, some even in old age.

I agree and have amply defended free will. But at the same time, I must also defend God's predestination of people to grace. The Bible speaks of both truths - that man has free will and God expects man to respond to Him AND that God provides EVERY good grace necessary to whom He sees fit and chooses to use it. I have found, as St. Augustine had, that being in the middle of a point of view and arguing against one extreme often leads the other extreme to counter "heresy"! The Catholic Church continues to teach Predestination - both to grace and to glory - although it has NEVER taught double predestination (God actively predestining the reprobate to perdition)

When St. Augustine defended the Church vs. the Manicheaens, he used words emphasizing free will that the Pelagians would later use against him. St. Augustine then went the other extreme to defend the Catholic faith, using words and phrases that our Calvinist brothers have taken out of context!

Free will is an essential part of every human being and even for angels. It was an essential feature of Mary. And of Jesus himself as He accepted His role as Christ

I don't believe I denied that Mary had free will! I have pinged two "Calvinist" who can vouch for my belief in free will and my defense. But certainly, God can arrange things so that a person makes a free will choice. This "arrangement" can include that person's mental dispositions, his environment, and so forth. We as Catholics believe that God touches man through creation. Thus, He is certainly able to manipulate things so that the best choice would appear to be "x". The person has a free choice to make, but God, in the circumstances that He sees fit, can bring people to make the choice that God desires.

The Father is not interested in robots, it seems. We Calvinist types like to say that man's free will is not violated by God's unalterable and unfolding plan of creation. And man's free will does not diminish God's free will. It is merely that man's free will in this matter of predestination is fully enfolded in God's free will and his plan for the salvation of those He adopted as His children from the foundation of the world.

I haven't heard this argument before from Calvinists. After reading about TULIP, a Catholic can agree with some of it, although we would change the wording a bit. The first, Total Depravity, makes us cringe. But in essence, we agree with the concept, that man cannot come to God under his OWN power and requires grace from above. Where I have had problems here is pointing out man's cooperation - a gift from God, no doubt - but just the same, the Scriptures use the language of synergism.

Without full free will, neither Mary nor Jesus could be what scripture says they are.

I agree. Your explanation seems to properly balance man's free will with God's sovereign will without destroying either one.

Regards