I have said that man does not cooperate with his salvation. But this does not mean that AFTER salvation he is unable to do good. After what I call salvation, God has enabled man to do good in His eyes for the first time. Any misunderstanding is probably due to the God's POV vs. man's POV issue.
I will say again that from man's POV, he can do nothing "good" before salvation. After salvation, man is able to choose to do good, or able to choose to sin. OTOH, from God's POV, all good comes from God, so He gets all the credit and glory for causing all the good we do after salvation. From God's POV, men are still free to sin. When I responded as I did, I assumed you were only talking about doing good, so I did not address the sin side. I believe that I have always said that man is free to sin, but I wasn't sure if you thought that counted as "doing" something.
We have discussed the responsibility and expectation issues at length. I'm not sure what else I can add, but if you have a specific new question, I'll be happy to try to answer.
And who wrote the "answer sheet"?
I would have said I thought your answer would be "fate", based on the other line, but that might be changing. I'll wait to see your response there.
I sense a condescending tone in your reply... Hmm. The problem is that you don't know who the elect are. Thus, we persevere until the end. If God told you that you are of the elect and cannot fail, what is the point of Him telling the EVERYONE to persevere? And who is Jesus telling to persevere? God or man?
I'm sorry if I sounded that way, but it was not my intent. I genuinely take from your answers that you judge God's justice by man's standards, saying that it cannot fall short. You have said this, yes? Therefore, man sets his own standards, and God's standards are measured against them. God's cannot fall short of man's. I have said why I disagree, that they are different standards altogether.
I do not persevere because I'm not sure if I am of the elect. I persevere because God said so, and a member of the elect wants to obey God. I don't see how God is telling EVERYONE, including the lost to persevere. The lost cannot do any good in God's eyes, so they cannot persevere. On who is actually persevering, it can be answered either way, depending on the POV.
Are any of the sheep named "Forest"? It is a parable expressing how willing God is to bring His community to Him.
Yes, one sheep is named Forest. "BAAAAAAA!" See? :) If the parable had spoken in "communal" terms, using words like "herd" a lot, then you might have something. But it does just the opposite, it specifically speaks of individual sheep.
If you are of the Church, it is to the degree that you share the Catholic faith.
And I would say that God's Church is composed of all of God's elect, all believers, no matter their individual denominations, if any. So, every time I disagree with the "Church" I mean the RCC, since I know that to you God's Church and the RCC are one in the same. My, opposite, attitude is that I don't think you need to be a Protestant to be a member of God's Church.
Jesus saw the same attitude [as FK's] in the Pharisees...What was His attitude towards them? I am sorry, but Christ didn't think too highly of presumptuous behavior.
Presumption also goes both ways. Your hierarchy presumes to speak for God, presumes exclusive ownership of God's Church, and presumes to rewrite the Bible in order to conform to Tradition.
And probably from your definition of salvation, which is not a Scriptural one. Salvation is seen as a past, present, and future event. It is not ONLY a past, one-time event. This is probably where a lot of the confusion stems from.
As to works not necessary for salvation, James disagrees:
My brethren, What shall it profit though someone says [that] they have faith and do not have works? Shall faith [without works] be able to save them? James 2:14
Faith without works is dead, so how can one not have works of love and still think they will be saved? Paul agrees by saying that faith, even if it can move mountains, is NOTHING without love.
As to cooperation, I have found the Gospel of John very helpful lately in seeing how a disciple's work IN Christ is not different then Christ's Work IN the Father. That is what is meant by sharing in life, or as Peter calls it, a share in the Divine Nature. I have found that God often points me in the right direction when I have such conversations. I wish I was more grateful sometimes...
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believes in me, the works that I do he shall do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do because I go unto my Father." John 14:12
It seems clear to me that with "life" within us, we can do the works of God - to believe in Jesus Christ and obey His commandments.
I will say again that from man's POV, he can do nothing "good" before salvation.
And I will again disagree. When united with Christ, it is not I alone who works, but God working in me. Based on this cooperation (or lack thereof) will I be judged, not on a one-time acceptance of Jesus as my Lord and Savior... But of course, I am using a different sense of "salvation" then you - because that one-time, first time justification is not the end.
We have discussed the responsibility and expectation issues at length.
I still do not understand how a person is judged "on his deeds", knowing that man cannot even cooperate at all with God's graces. You seem to have avoided giving an explanation on this, chalking it up to "God's Judgment" - which appears to be less than man's idea of judgment.
The Scriptures clearly say we can reject the Spirit. Is this not a use of free will? Thus, by NOT rejecting the Spirit, our deeds, our cooperation with the Spirit will be seen as loving and worthy of reward.
you judge God's justice by man's standards, saying that it cannot fall short.
God's standards EXCEEDS man's standards. You seem to say that God's standards do not even REACH man's standards, but that's OK, since God is God, YET, evil is good, justice is injustice, love is selfishness, and all this makes sense because God's ways are not our ways??? This defies any common sense.
Therefore, man sets his own standards, and God's standards are measured against them.
Men don't set the standards. However, we have a good idea of them based on revelation and that God's work in nature mirrors His work in the supernatural. Thus, we are pretty sure that our idea of good is SURPASSED by God, rather than God's idea of good being our idea of EVIL! God doesn't work in opposites, but transcends our understanding. He is BEYOND human mercy. You would have me believe that God's mercy does not even maintain man's idea of mercy!
I do not persevere because I'm not sure if I am of the elect. I persevere because God said so, and a member of the elect wants to obey God.
God said you were of the elect? Do I dare ask how or what Scripture you base this self-determination? I have yet to find your Christian name in the Bible! Is this a tradition? :-)
If the parable had spoken in "communal" terms, using words like "herd" a lot, then you might have something. But it does just the opposite, it specifically speaks of individual sheep.
It does speak of the community. You'd have to go to the Synoptics to find the more individualized message. However, this still does not prove that YOU are one of the individual sheep. Thieves are ALSO in the sheepfold - Christ says so in John 10:1. Only those who hear AND FOLLOW His voice are Christ's sheep. Today, from our point of view.
And I would say that God's Church is composed of all of God's elect, all believers, no matter their individual denominations, if any. So, every time I disagree with the "Church" I mean the RCC, since I know that to you God's Church and the RCC are one in the same. My, opposite, attitude is that I don't think you need to be a Protestant to be a member of God's Church.
God's Church is only the elect? Is that what you are saying? The Bible would disagree with that over and over again...Only the angels during harvest time will select out who is the wheat and who is the weed - AND THE WEEDS WILL BE BURNT! There is no "lesser rewards" for those who are "in" the Church but are weeds...
No, I would admit that being a Protestant is not a necessity to being part of God's Church!!! That is pretty laughable! However, I haven't said that one must be Roman Catholic formally, either.
Presumption also goes both ways. Your hierarchy presumes to speak for God, presumes exclusive ownership of God's Church, and presumes to rewrite the Bible in order to conform to Tradition.
The presumption is based on eyewitness testimony, as the beginning of 1 John opens: "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life (for the life is manifested, and we also saw [it] and bear witness and show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father and appeared unto us); that which we have seen and heard we declare unto you, that ye also may have communion with us; and truly our communion [is] with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be fulfilled" 1 John 1:1-4
If you believe that the Scriptures are from God, then you'd be hard pressed to deny that the Church is NOT from God! You can't have one while denying the other.
Regards