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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper
The sheep have always been His sheep. The goats have always been goats. That is how God chose to order His creation.

What is unfortunate regarding that idea is that we cannot identify the sheep from the goats, from our point of view. Recall the parable of the wheat and the weeds, or more properly, the wheat and cockles? Cockles and wheat look remarkably similar. Thus the order not to try to single out the wheat from the weeds before the harvest. In the same way, we don't know who the elect are, from our point of view.

In John 10, the Evangelist implies that SOME of those in the sheepfold (those of the Church) do NOT follow Christ's voice. We all hear it, but some do not follow it. Only those who HEAR AND FOLLOW will enter into green pasture. All those in the sheepfold are not necessarily sheep, as Christ makes clear:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber." John 10:1

Some are in the sheepfold (Church) who don't belong. Only those who CONTINUE to FOLLOW the voice of the Shepherd are considered "sheep".

Regards

7,013 posted on 05/22/2006 12:51:49 PM PDT by jo kus (For love is of God; and everyone that loves is born of God, and knows God. 1Jn 4:7)
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To: jo kus; Dr. Eckleburg
In John 10, the Evangelist implies that SOME of those in the sheepfold (those of the Church) do NOT follow Christ's voice. We all hear it, but some do not follow it. Only those who HEAR AND FOLLOW will enter into green pasture. All those in the sheepfold are not necessarily sheep, as Christ makes clear:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber." John 10:1

Some are in the sheepfold (Church) who don't belong. Only those who CONTINUE to FOLLOW the voice of the Shepherd are considered "sheep".

I respectfully disagree with this analysis. In this parable, I begin by looking at whether a non-sheep can be a member of the sheepfold. I would say "NO". Only actual SHEEP can, by definition, be members of the sheepfold. Other non-sheep-entities [NSEs] can be AMONG the sheepfold, or "ENTER" a sheepfold and mill about, but they cannot be a part of the sheepfold. So, I disagree that any of these entities can be a part of God's Church. They can show up and hang around, but they are not part of God's family, the Church, and never have been.

Since this is a parable, I paid particular attention to who the actors are here, noting that the sheep are the believers, God's Church. Now, the first verse says "HE" who climbs in some other way, not by the door, is a thief, etc. The second verse says "HE" who enters through the gate is the shepherd. This "HE" is clearly Jesus.

So, the first "HE" must be an entity who has an ability to harm a sheep, but is NOT a sheep, just as a shepherd is not a sheep. Verse 1 DOES NOT say that "a sheep who hops the fence ...", it says "HE". I take this to either be satan himself, or a false prophet or something along those lines. But I don't think it can be a member of God's Church. Sheep pens were specifically designed to prevent sheep from jumping out, so why would we assume that a sheep could jump in? Only an evil entity, other than a sheep, could, in order to steal the sheep away. Therefore, the sheepfold is not corrupted with sheep that will fall away. As it says a few verses later in John, God allows none of His sheep to be lost. NONE!

7,217 posted on 05/26/2006 3:06:29 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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