There can be no doubt that Mary suffered tremendous mental anguish at what she witnessed. None. I'm just not sure how this aids in the idea of her being a co-redeemer. Was her suffering worse than that of any other human? I mean, I could play ball with you if you wanted to make a comparison to her pain, as if she was a martyr. I know that scriptures say that martyrs are in a separate class, so I could entertain the idea of their sufferings being comparable. But even martyrs have nothing to do with redemption, so I don't see how Mary's suffering can put her into such a one-woman class.
The Scriptures tell us over and over that we know we abide in Christ when we obey Him, His commandments. What sort of "saving faith" is it when we do not respond to our King and refuse to obey Him? Wishful thinking.
Yes, I fully agree. The person with saving faith will want to obey God, and will do so, albeit with mistakes here and there.
Mary contributed to our salvation in the same manner as Eve participated in our destruction. Both woman were "bystanders" who were not needed - BUT - participate in the action just the same. This is straight from the writers of the second century AD...
Well, the NT doesn't give Eve any "credit" for helping in our destruction, does it? Wasn't it pretty much pinned all on Adam? Neither does the NT give any "credit" to Mary in our redemption. I mean, what Mary went through was "statistically insignificant" compared to what Jesus went through, would you agree? Therefore, I don't understand all the fuss to bring Mary into something that really only belongs to Christ.
That's what Hades was for, a place of shades. The righteous of the OT were not allowed into heaven until AFTER Christ's saving death. Otherwise, Christ's death would not be necessary, now, would it? If people were in heaven BEFORE Christ's death, then there is another way into heaven, another name under whom the world is saved. Is that your proposal?
No, that is not my proposal. :) So, looping in what Alex has said, is Hades and Limbo the same thing? ... Christ's death was absolutely necessary for both the OT righteous, as well as for us. But it appears that you are placing God into time here. If for God every moment is one, then why can't the redemptive work of Christ be also effective "immediately" for those in the OT? From God's POV, which is what we're talking about, Christ's death was "complete" before the Incarnation, so to speak.
Actually, in this case, no. God's salvific work affects us in real time, through Divine Economy.
It's not the suffering itself that makes her a "co-redeemer". It is the fact that she participated and gave of herself to God during the event that untied the knot of disobedience tied by Adam and Eve (if I may paraphrase St. Irenaeus, c. 180 AD). Her participation, like Eve's, was not needed - but God willed for both females to take part in their respective events.
The person with saving faith will want to obey God, and will do so, albeit with mistakes here and there.
Faith is not "saving" WITHOUT those deeds of love. Remember what James said? "Does that (workless) faith save?"
We need both.
Well, the NT doesn't give Eve any "credit" for helping in our destruction, does it?
Paul seems to think so. Perhaps he already thought highly of Mary, since Paul ALSO talks about Jesus as the Second Adam... We'll never know.
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" 2 Cor 11:3
Therefore, I don't understand all the fuss to bring Mary into something that really only belongs to Christ.
I don't see all the fuss about crying over the fact that Mary is highly regarded by Catholics and Orthodox. Would Christ be happy about such disparaging talk about His Mother? Do you get upset when other people give compliments about your mother? The fact of the matter is that GOD HIMSELF Willed that Mary be there - from the first miracle at Cana to the end of the Passion. She participate in the fact that she gave her will totally to God - something that Eve did not do. She clearly was the handmaiden of the Lord. We cannot honor Mary ENOUGH! It is the mind of the Spirit revealed in the action of the Church for 2000 years that we DO honor Mary. But none of this replaces what Christ did on the Cross. Mary is nothing without Christ.
So, looping in what Alex has said, is Hades and Limbo the same thing? ...
I would say no. I would say Hades no longer exists, after Christ's Redemptive Work.
Christ's death was absolutely necessary for both the OT righteous, as well as for us. But it appears that you are placing God into time here. If for God every moment is one, then why can't the redemptive work of Christ be also effective "immediately" for those in the OT? You are correct. It is "retroactive". But men are within time, so there must have been some "waiting" period. St. Aquinas talks about time moving differently for those in the afterlife, different then God or our time. I forget the term he uses... But there is some sort of time where the OT righteous "waited", from their point of view.
From God's POV, which is what we're talking about, Christ's death was "complete" before the Incarnation, so to speak.
Sure, but God had to come into time to make it effective, correct?
Regards