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To: Forest Keeper
My disagreement is the idea that man gets any of the credit or any of the glory for what is really God's doing. I know you do not think you are doing anything that is truthfully good, absent God.

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." Mat 5:20

"...[YOU] work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure. Phil 2:12-13

Jesus never mentions that His righteousness covers our own evil nature. He EXPECTS US to obey the commandments, under the power of the Holy Spirit. It is YOU that will be judged, FK, not Jesus Christ and His inability to "cover" you. Paul is clear that WE are expected to respond to the gifts that Christ gives us, especially in His abiding presence through the sacraments.

God certainly can and does change and transform us

That's not what you preach. You type that but don't mean it, because you are clear that man gets NO credit and does NOTHING. What exactly is the point of man being transformed if he doesn't nor can do nothing of merit?

why is it that when Catholics have the status of actually being righteous, that it is not a "status", but when Protestants have the status of being declared righteous, it is a "status"?

We believe it is MORE than JUST a status. It is a reality that is declared because it IS so. Thus, we ARE righteous. Not just legally.

Well, we must have different ideas about what imputed righteousness is. My idea is that the "imputed" part means it has nothing to do with man, or his actions, or his cooperation. It is a covering, and it is a status in a legal sense. We are "declared" righteous by the righteousness of Christ. All of this is made even better later.

No, that about is what imputed righteous is. Something not part of us, just a legal status. A pile of manure covered with snow to trick God... Yes, we have a new status, but God doesn't MERELY CALL us righteous. He makes us so! Thus, the term "theosis" or "divinization" you here us Catholics and Orthodox talk about... We are being given a share in the divine nature, which means WE can LOVE! WE can LOVE even our enemies! This is something no human person without Christ can do.

You share in the divine nature? I don't know what that means. I'm also not sure of what the bus ticket analogy is supposed to mean. We believe that God wants us to have full lives. This is what sanctification brings us. What instead do you think we believe?

See above on divine nature sharing. I think we agree on sanctification. But we believe it is something that is part of salvation, not something apart from it. A person who does not take an active role in sanctification eventually falls away from faith. And it is by faith working in love that we are saved. No faith, no eternal salvation...

Regards

6,893 posted on 05/19/2006 7:30:48 AM PDT by jo kus (For love is of God; and everyone that loves is born of God, and knows God. 1Jn 4:7)
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To: jo kus
FK: "My disagreement is the idea that man gets any of the credit or any of the glory for what is really God's doing."

JK quoting: "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." Mat 5:20

Well, this is a fair matter for interpretation. Can I take credit for "MY" height? There are plenty of things that are "mine" that I had nothing to do with. So I would say that "my" righteousness is only a product of God, not of me.

No, that about is what imputed righteous is. Something not part of us, just a legal status. A pile of manure covered with snow to trick God...

Where does the idea about "tricking God" come from? Nobody thinks that. When we are in heaven we actually will be righteous. But that glory we have to wait for. If I turn out to be correct, I think one reason that God made that decision is His knowing what a man who thinks he is righteous is capable of.

We are being given a share in the divine nature, which means WE can LOVE! WE can LOVE even our enemies! ...

OK, I see what you mean. I was thinking along a totally different line. :)

7,096 posted on 05/24/2006 2:16:08 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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