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To: wmfights
You have misstated what Protestants believe. The Bible is all we need to know what GOD wants us to know and how to enter into a right relationship with GOD. The HOLY SPIRIT will guide the Saved in the learning process.

Have I? I wrote "Protestants, on the other hand, think that the Bible needs no outside authority - that the Bible can interpret itself." You above are saying that the "Holy Spirit" guides you. The problem with that is Protestants have a hugely diverse opinion on nearly everything of the faith. Is infant baptism OK? Is Baptism necessary for salvation? And so forth. Basically, what you REALLY mean is that "your opinion" (insert Protestant's name) = "Holy Spirit".

There is no way that the Holy Spirit speaks through such a body as the Protestant community on such issues! I would say that God speaks to you in spiritual matters that pertain to your individual life. Perhaps He leads you through Scripture reading to a closer understanding of His revelation. But He cannot possibly speak to you about matters of the deposit of faith that differ from the Church's, such as "Sola Fide" or the above about Baptism. The Holy Spirit HIMSELF inspired Scriptures to tell us that the CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of the Truth. It is the Church which guides our interpretation of Scripture. Scripture is not meant to be read outside of the "mind" of the Church.

God did not create the Church so that He could fight against it. A Kingdom divided against itself shall surely suffer.

How is the Roman Catholic Church any different than the Mormons. You both rely on documents not in the SCRIPTURE to determine your dogma and you both claim to have infallible heads.

Mormons claim that their Scriptures are ALSO from God...In BOTH cases, you either believe that the Mormon/Catholic Scriptures are really from God or you don't. The same with the Jewish Scriptures. You weigh their claim, look at their fruits, and listen to "God's voice" within to determine if they are from God. We then WILL to believe that "x" is Scripture because it indicates to us our ideas and paradigms of whom we believe God is and His Attributes. Thus, a Mormon will believe "X" because he was taught it and sees it verified in their "holy books". It is only when confronted with its contradictions and other authorities when people begin to doubt.

Regarding the Catholic point of view, the Scriptures did not determine the paradigm. Our views of God came from the Apostles - given to us orally first, then in oral and written form later. Oral teachings have never been abrogated. As long as they conform to what has been passed down previously throughout the ages from the Apostles, it is a valid teaching given by God to the Apostles. It doesn't matter if this teaching is written in the pages of the bible. The Bible is not a catechism, it is a collection of SOME writings from SOME of the Apostles. Clearly, it doesn't explain matters of the faith too well - at least in comparison to a systematic theology book. It doesn't start off "Chapter 1: Faith" and then detail everything about faith. The proof is in the disagreements that Christians of good will continue to have regarding the meaning of "faith". THUS, we rely on the TOTAL teachings of the Apostles to fully understand the meaning of Scriptures, the intent of the sacred writers.

Do you really think we would get the concept of Trinity from Scripture alone? No. Someone has to point out to us the pertinent passages and how to interpret passages that APPEAR to disagree with the idea of Trinity that the Church had. It is the very idea of Bible without Church that led to the heresy of Arianism - the idea the Jesus is NOT God. Arius used SCRIPTURE ALONE to figure out his point of view. It was only the Catholic Apostolic Tradition that noted that Arius was incorrect because he was reading Scripture incorrectly. And Protestants continue this pattern today. They read the Scriptures under their own "inspirations" - although you may call it the "Spirit". And as a result, they disagree and cannot really know exactly what the Scriptures mean. To fully understand the great gift God has given us through the Scriptures, we should look to the Church to help us understand them.

The LORD left us with SCRIPTURE after the Apostles were gone in order to avoid any confusion, IMHO.

Where does the Bible say that Jesus left any Scriptures? Where does Jesus write ANYTHING in the Bible (not counting His writings in the dirt with the adulterous woman)? You base that presumption on your theology already preconceived, not on any evidence from history or the Scriptures. It should be very clear that Christ left a Church, not a Bible.

Regards

6,816 posted on 05/17/2006 8:21:09 AM PDT by jo kus (For love is of God; and everyone that loves is born of God, and knows God. 1Jn 4:7)
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To: jo kus; wmfights
It should be very clear that Christ left a Church, not a Bible.

Would that be the same "church" that burned people at the stake for believing in Christ and possessing or printing a Bible?

Or the "church" that massacred the Huguenots?

Doesn't this painting still hang in the "church"?

Revelation 6:9  ¶And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

6,822 posted on 05/17/2006 3:19:45 PM PDT by Full Court (click on my name to see the baby!!)
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