My sarcasm meter is pegging right now... We don't believe that man can "always" override what God wants. We believe that God permits man to have evil thoughts, to sin. But He certainly is not denied the ability to intervene when He sees fit. Don't confuse free will with some power that man has over God. It is a gift that God gives.
I can't believe God left it to chance that all the authors of the Bible would never choose to ignore His grace on what to write.
Again, you are forgeting God's foresight. He sees everything before it happens in time - and KNOWS what is necessary to happen for His will to be done. He knows what events must occur for a man to choose "x" - if that is God's desire.
And God's foreknowledge is of no help here, because you would still have to believe in an amazing freak of luck that no author strayed, seeing as how "hands-off" you believe God is.
How is that? Did I say that man wrote the Bible without any help from God? Did He not inspire it? I am saying that the Bible is a combination of man and God. God did not use man as some sort of puppet, placing man in a trance to move his hand! God wouldn't need man at all if that is the way God planned to give the Scriptures. Why would He need man at ALL to write the Scriptures? God decided to involve man in writing the Scriptures - that much should be obvious. Thus, man's literary genre, style, methods, and knowledge are included within the Bible.
I do not believe God "expects" the elect to perform "X" number of good deeds to merit salvation.
Whoopie, we agree on something...
Perseverance comes completely from God, so with every good deed I do, I, personally, get 0 points in meeting God's expectations.
Everything comes from God. But man is expected to DO something! Thus, man is a secondary cause of his actions. EVERYWHERE in the Gospels, man is asked, pleaded with, given a choice - to believe or not. Certainly, man does not do this alone. Man is given grace to respond to God. Perseverance is not an empty request from God. It DEPENDS on man's cooperation. Faith is not only something given by God to men, it is a RESPONSE to God's grace. Faith ALSO depends on man.
It's a perfect revelation of God's will, and therefore a wonderful teaching tool to seekers. Sorry, it is wishful thinking, not in compliance with Scriptures. God's promises are for those who persevere - from our point of view. NO ONE is given automatic eternal salvation for turning to Christ in one night - while failing to respond in faith to Christ's presence. If one refuses to obey Christ's commandments, the Spirit is not within that person. He will not be saved in the end without this abiding presence.
Thank God the Bible is not silent at all, He gives us His will that we are to persevere
God doesn't say that YOU will persevere. Only His elect. Being regenerate does NOT mean you are of the elect.
I don't put the burden on my shoulders to perform to such and such a level. God already says He will take the burden for us.
God says His burden is light and easy. He doesn't say He "takes it away".
The "every jot and tittle" verse. The "Law" that Jesus was referring to was the Law found plainly in the scriptures. Here, was Jesus submitting Himself to the work of men? I can't believe that He is. Rather, He is submitting Himself to the "literal" word of God, down to the last jot and tittle. I don't believe that imperfect men could come up with something that Jesus seems to think is THAT perfect.
Again, I didn't say that man wrote the Bible without God's inspiration. Everything that God wanted written within it is inerrant. Thus, if God desired to tell of a parable called "Jonah" and a prophet who incorrectly assumes that salvation is only for the Jews - although God does so with a mythical story, does that MEAN that God's Word is not fully inerrant? That it is not truth??? If you have no problems with Jesus telling parables, why can't the OT have parables?
God's "literal" word was intended to be interpreted at times God's "literal" word is eternal and not subject to interpretation by man. Thus, the problem with Islam, brother. Christianity can thrive because we CAN realize that God's Word is mediated through man. The Church CAN interpret it - making the Scripture LIVING. It is through the Church that the Scripture remains alive.
Regards
I really wasn't trying to be sarcastic (this time! :) When I said "always" I meant "at any given time". I know that you believe that God always HAS the power to intervene in anything, but I thought you would say that God would not ever use it "against" man, if man's free will would be quashed. You know how many times I have read on this thread that God loves us so much that He will not force us to do (or not do) anything, so this is where my comment is coming from.
FK: "I can't believe God left it to chance that all the authors of the Bible would never choose to ignore His grace on what to write."
Again, you are forgetting God's foresight. He sees everything before it happens in time - and KNOWS what is necessary to happen for His will to be done. He knows what events must occur for a man to choose "x" - if that is God's desire.
Well if I'm interpreting you correctly, then we agree. When you said that God "knows what events must occur ...", I take that to mean you are saying the fix was in because God caused those events. I am fine with that. Whether God put the fix in while they were literally writing, or whether God set up the billions of details in advance to get them to write what He wanted is all the same to me. Either way, God guaranteed each word of the scriptures.
FK: "And God's foreknowledge is of no help here, because you would still have to believe in an amazing freak of luck that no author strayed, seeing as how "hands-off" you believe God is."
How is that? Did I say that man wrote the Bible without any help from God? Did He not inspire it?
You never said either of those things, but this is where my above argument comes in. I have been buried in statements that God will not interfere with man's free will. However, if you are now saying that God proactively placed whatever events in the lives of the writers to cause them to write what they wrote, then that is an override of what their will is/was, and I agree. That is putting the fix in.
God did not use man as some sort of puppet, placing man in a trance to move his hand! God wouldn't need man at all if that is the way God planned to give the Scriptures. Why would He need man at ALL to write the Scriptures?
God didn't "need" man to write the scriptures. :) (He seemed to do OK with the Ten Commandments.) But, if you'll agree that God set up everything such as to leave nothing to chance, then I'm fine with that.
Whoopie, we agree on something...
My sarcasm meter is pegging right now... :)
Faith is not only something given by God to men, it is a RESPONSE to God's grace. Faith ALSO depends on man. (emphasis added)
This is for what I have labored so hard and for so long to hear. :) I think this takes away from God's sovereignty, and this difference is one of the main points (tangentially, if not explicitly) of the original article of this thread. You can't really tell me then, that "everything" comes from God. It cannot, if your sense of free will really is true.
[On whether it makes sense for there to be "perseverance scriptures" to the elect, if the elect are already guaranteed to comply:] FK: "It's a perfect revelation of God's will, and therefore a wonderful teaching tool to seekers. ..........
Sorry, it is wishful thinking, not in compliance with Scriptures. God's promises are for those who persevere - from our point of view.
(And only the elect persevere, so God's promises are only for the elect, you are saying ...).
Scriptures used to teach seekers about perseverance are not in compliance with scriptures? Revealing God's will that His elect persevere is not in compliance? What are you talking about? -- Besides, what good are any of God's promises to those who persevere when none of them (those who persevere) can be known until after their dead?
God doesn't say that YOU will persevere. Only His elect. Being regenerate does NOT mean you are of the elect.
Again, what good are God's promises here if they apply to no one in particular? Why do you bother to read them? You seem to know that they don't apply to me because I claim to be of the elect. How or why do they apply to you?
FK: "I don't put the burden on my shoulders to perform to such and such a level. God already says He will take the burden for us."
God says His burden is light and easy. He doesn't say He "takes it away".
Here are a couple of examples:
Is. 46:3-4 : 3 "Listen to me, O house of Jacob, all you who remain of the house of Israel, you whom I have upheld since you were conceived, and have carried since your birth. 4 Even to your old age and gray hairs I am he, I am he who will sustain you. I have made you and I will carry you; I will sustain you and I will rescue you.
Deut. 1:31 : ... and in the desert. There you saw how the LORD your God carried you, as a father carries his son, all the way you went until you reached this place."
And of course the obvious question to you would be: Do you consider your sins to be a burden? Did God relieve you of that burden by dying on the cross, or does man take care of his own burden by doing deeds and sacraments to redeem his own burden of sin? I know you don't believe that. Is this a misunderstanding?
If you have no problems with Jesus telling parables, why can't the OT have parables?
I don't have any problem with the concept, I will just never assume that something is a parable, (a) if there is no indication that it is, and/or (b) just because I can't scientifically explain every detail of the story to the satisfaction of today's scientists. MY presumption will always be that the story is meant to be taken as factually true, unless there is convincing evidence to the contrary.
FK: "God's "literal" word was intended to be interpreted at times."
God's "literal" word is eternal and not subject to interpretation by man. Thus, the problem with Islam, brother. Christianity can thrive because we CAN realize that God's Word is mediated through man. The Church CAN interpret it - making the Scripture LIVING.
No Islam problem here. Jesus gave a parable one time, and then He turned right around and interpreted it for His disciples right there. Here is an example of God interpreting His own word, even though you do not believe that can ever happen. I think the principle lives on to this day. The Spirit interprets the word of God for us. We just disagree on who the Spirit has on His speed dial.
The Church can make the scripture LIVING? God delegated that one away too, eh? Well, I hope it isn't the Church that is trying to make the Constitution LIVING! :)